bw31 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 My transitions are slow, about 2x what my split times are on a single target. Conceptually, I believe this is due to me bringing the gun back on the first target, then shifting over to the second instead of driving the gun in recoil to the second target. Anyone know of some good exercises to help speed me up? I am working on the stuff in Steve Anderson's dry fire book, but its not quite translating to live fire for some odd reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 You are likely keeping your vision static. I'd guess that you are following your front sight to the target. - call the current shot - snap your vision on to the next target spot - as your gun catches up, bring your visual focus back to the front sight - repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Hmm.. I'd say that's probably not where you're losing a lot of speed. A 1911 cycles in something like 0.06 seconds total, so the difference between watching the sight return to the original target and watching it chase it over to the next one is only a difference of 0.04 or so, if that. Now if you let the sights sit there after the second shot and don't snap your eyes to the next target, then you're losing serious time. What are your splits and transitions on say, 10 yard targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I agree. Make sure you always lead with the eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 One thing I learned on transitions isn't to see the target. See a spot ON the target. I'm actually outlining the "A" on my practice targets as a visual cue to make sure that I'm actually seeing the target crisply as I transition the gun and retract my focus to the front sight. [/ E Class Shooting Instructor Mode] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I am far from an expert, but I will share my version. Shoot more of the transition drills in your dry fire, really snap your eyes from the target you just shot to the exact spot on the one you will shoot next. Change it up too, move your dry fire targets around, short transitions and long transitions from left to right and right to left. Get some vertical transitions, and some angled transitions in too. Steve gives you some space in the back of the book to create drills, use it. When you need to transition just GO!!!!!! Don't move to the next target, snap to it. MOVE!!!! Transition with agression!!! Want it, see it, do it. Transitions are still the weakest part of my shooting, but doing the above has really done some good for me. I suck a lot less at transitions than I did before I really went to work on them. My match placings are bearing out that the work is paying off too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 (edited) I would work on Cadence Drills. I used to not like them because some shooters use them incorrectly in the developmental stages to shoot all targets with a cadence instead of aiming every shot Now that I have taught them I see so many shooters advance to higher skills through these drills. My theory is they need to see, feel, hear, understand, and trust what .25 splits and transistions are in order to learn how to shoot .25 splits/trans. Don't let a cadence drill be the end, but use them to advance to a higher level. Edited March 21, 2006 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 My first advice would be set up a bunch of targets and only work transitions... one shot per target place 3 or 4 targets one yard appart. bearable times are .30 and less. Good tiems are .25 and for GM level you need them at .20 and under . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 It might be hugely important to define the different types of transitions that we see. Transitions on targets that are close together (like on El Prez) and on things like plate racks can be done by nudging the gun over to the next target. Targets spaced further apart...separated by height...spaced near vs. far distance are what I call "real" target transitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 A key sentence to practice "keeping your eyes moving"... For each target - Do you remember seeing the target BEFORE you saw the sights on the target? If you can't remember "seeing in that order," you probably didn't. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bw31 Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 Hmm.. I'd say that's probably not where you're losing a lot of speed. A 1911 cycles in something like 0.06 seconds total, so the difference between watching the sight return to the original target and watching it chase it over to the next one is only a difference of 0.04 or so, if that.Now if you let the sights sit there after the second shot and don't snap your eyes to the next target, then you're losing serious time. What are your splits and transitions on say, 10 yard targets? I was doing a 10 yard el prez and my splits on targets are ~.22 while my transitions are ~.45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian38 Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I was doing a 10 yard el prez and my splits on targets are ~.22 while my transitions are ~.45. cadence drills +1 Actually +1 to everything on this post set up three targets at 5 yards...two shots each and try to make you transitions match your splits ... you also might try relaxing your right hand a little it was all I needed to drop my splits to .15-.18 although .22 is fine ! speed it up at a on close targets and then slowly move them further out. you also might try setting two targets up at 5-7 yards and space them 5 yards apart and try practicing slowly at first shooting one and snapping your head(eyes) to the other(it helped teach me to snap my eyes to the next target and not wait for the gun.) do it back and forth that way you don't get into the habit of going one way. best of luck! C-38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bw31 Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 I was doing a 10 yard el prez and my splits on targets are ~.22 while my transitions are ~.45. cadence drills +1 Actually +1 to everything on this post set up three targets at 5 yards...two shots each and try to make you transitions match your splits ... you also might try relaxing your right hand a little it was all I needed to drop my splits to .15-.18 although .22 is fine ! speed it up at a on close targets and then slowly move them further out. you also might try setting two targets up at 5-7 yards and space them 5 yards apart and try practicing slowly at first shooting one and snapping your head(eyes) to the other(it helped teach me to snap my eyes to the next target and not wait for the gun.) do it back and forth that way you don't get into the habit of going one way. best of luck! C-38 Just to be clear, by candence drill you mean I should set up say 3 targets and try and shoot the splits and transitions at the same speed. To begin with, this would be at .45. Then I will gradually speed up everything together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 When I shoot a solid run, I never remember what I saw....which is not a bad thing if I am really aware with the shooting. After, during retrospective mode or hyper analyzing I KNOW I saw what I needed. If I shot poorly I look for trigger control or moving off before the shot is made so my follow through was poor. My biggest hiccup was focusing out to target and back in to the sights and trying to adjust then slapping away at the trigger, this coupled with poor grip made the gun pop so high, I had to readjust again. A weird way to put it is that I am confident in the knowing after the run and felt really snappy target to target or getting the heck off the target once I have called the shot. As defined for closer targets. When I watched Robbie at the steel match blister a run he told me that he is already off the target he called and snaps to the next one with his eyes. He is just so frickin fast getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Shoot .20 splits for the entire drill. Pretend like the gun is going to go off no matter what you do...it is your job to get the gun there in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 That is a interesting way to think about it Jake. I'm gonna have to try that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bw31 Posted March 25, 2006 Author Share Posted March 25, 2006 Shoot .20 splits for the entire drill. Pretend like the gun is going to go off no matter what you do...it is your job to get the gun there in time. I envision lots and lots of mikes when I try this for the first time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian38 Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 (edited) Just to be clear, by candence drill you mean I should set up say 3 targets and try and shoot the splits and transitions at the same speed. To begin with, this would be at .45. Then I will gradually speed up everything together? I would start out slow and get all my hits and over the course of the session speed it up until your shooting .22 splits and .22 transitions ... It happens pretty quickly. just keep it sounding smooth ... you want to see/call every shot. If your having trouble speeding up move even closer (3 yards) and then move back to 5 . your working on being smooth ... the speed will just happen, if it doesn't then start snapping the gun to the next target make it move faster. I used to do cadence drills at the start and finish of every practice session 2-3 mags worth I noticed a real improvement. some one needs to do a cadence VIDEO clip! hint hint ....L2S ? you will easily speed up your transitions! C-38 this is also a timing drill... try thinking of it as six shots all evenly spaced instead of 3 sets of 2 shots each. Edited March 25, 2006 by caspian38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bw31 Posted March 25, 2006 Author Share Posted March 25, 2006 Thanks for all the tips, im going to dedicate tomorrow and 500 rounds to just working on transitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) I posted on this same topic almost 4 years ago. Here's a link to the discussion which includes a description of the cadence drills Ron Avery uses in his classes. Scroll down the old thread for some real words of wisdom from Benos. Cadence FWIW, I filmed this yesterday for a different purpose for another forum. It's amazing how far a person can go in a few short years. If I can do it there is hope for everyone. Fast Cadence Edited March 27, 2006 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I agree with what Jake said, with the caveat of stay at distances where you can get your hits. I think you want to start out with the targets fairly close together and say 3 meters away and progress out/apart as you improve. 1. Start shooting the splits and seeing them while moving across the targets. 2. When you can see all the shots, start picking a spot on each target and shoot the spot at the SAME splits. 3. Start varying target distances and heights. Using the upper A zone can simulate distance and save targets. DON'T double tap targets this will slow your transitions down. Once your eyes start driving the gun, you will find your splits are only limited by your vision and dexterity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capizzo Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 This has helped me alot, "From my experience, often the people with cadence or transition issues are those who double-tap. If you make the assumption that every single shot is a called shot (a shot having a good enough sight picture to hit an A), then driving the gun back to the same target for a second shot is almost the same as driving the gun to a separate target right next to the first. The goal is to always be driving the gun towards the next shot, whether the next shot is on the same target or a different one." (italics added,ac) Dave Olhasso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I was reflecting on this very subject this weekend, after watching Dave Sevigny's transitions carefully on a few stages. I'd done some drills in the past where my goal was to just trust that I could get the gun moved before it went off again, and essentially decided to try what Jake describes above - pick a cadence, and drive the gun to that cadence. It occurred to me that, if I just let it happen and trust that I could do it, my body would find a way to "git 'r done", and it has done so in the past. I'm anxiously awaiting some video from this past weekend (thanks again, Steve !!!! ), so that I can tear it apart. My transitions are just slow - not because I'm double tapping in the traditional "one sight picture" sense, but because I'm just not snapping to the next target. It's almost as if I have a sense of urgency to do the shooting, but no focus on applying it. I don't know if that makes sense, or not... Feels like I'm approaching one of those revelation points, though, which is cool - I'm hoping I can learn something, here, and apply it well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bret Heidkamp Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) Here is a topic where shooting open class for a season will really help your skills. Although the following doesn't address cadence, it does address eye movement to the target in advance, which is a problem I've seen in a bunch of shooters: The drill I've used for transitions / eye movement / is to place two steel challenge round 10" targets in the bay, about 10 yards apart. Then step back about 10 yards. One shot each, left, right, left, right, etc. Do a few mags worth. The skill is to move your eyes ahead of the gun, like everyone is saying. This exaggerates the need to move your eyes first because the targets are so far apart. Plus, the steel provides instant feedback. If you're tracking along with the sights, this will break that bad habit quickly. One other thing is this teaches you to put on the brakes before getting to the target or you'll overswing them because they're small (try 8's or 6's if the 10's are not challenging). This is just a really good drill, and I feel the need for it right now to shake off the winter rust. :-) So... eyes... then if eyes can't reach the target.. head turn... and the gun is following along. Edited March 29, 2006 by Bret Heidkamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 FWIW, I filmed this yesterday for a different purpose for another forum. It's amazing how far a person can go in a few short years. If I can do it there is hope for everyone. Fast Cadence that was fast ron...what were those splits and transitions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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