Max Michel Says

[Bigbadaboom]

Just read an article in the March/April issue of American Handgunner on page 32 about better shooting. In this article Max Michel states that the first quality he looks for is speed in a newcomer to the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit. He states that he doesn't mind if the person gets D's and misses as long as their fast because it's easier to teach accuracy to a fast shooter than it is to get a slow shooter to speed up.

What's up with that? Comments?

Edited February 16, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[dirtypool40]

I bet it's like pitching in HS baseball. Hard to teach speed, control comes with practice and maturity.

[spook]

Interesting.

I think a lot of people will confuse Max's expanation thinking he means you should just hose at a match and go balls out all the time and expect to "one day shoot better points".

I think Max' theory also has something to do with most shooters putting more emphasis on analysing the shooting part of our game and less of the speed part. We never read any posts here of how to sprint faster, or which exercises to do to become faster. No plyometrics, fitness, diets etc.

Most posts are about shooting. If you practice a lot on shooting, you will become a better shooter. If you would practice a lot on speed, you will become faster.

I don't think slow accurate shooters are more difficult to teach speed. It just requires a diferent focus. Maybe the current top dawgs in shooting can explain the shooting part better than the speed part. Maybe you shouldn't even visit an IPSC shooter to learn speed. If speed is your weakness, then maybe you're better off learning that from a Badminton player, sprinter or Table tennis player. Or from someone who's a great IPSC shooter, but doesn't posess natural speed.

Short: What one man can do, another can do.

I just think Max is a guy who has natural speed and is better in teaching people like himself.

So I would read this as:

It is easier for Max to teach fast guys to become accurate, than accurate guys to become fast.

Edited February 16, 2006 by spook

[XRe]

I think a lot of people will confuse Max's expanation thinking he means you should just hose at a match and go balls out all the time and expect to "one day shoot better points".

Based on my experience - I agree with Max, but spook is right, above, that folks might get the wrong message

You certainly need to know how to shoot - but shooting fast, and an emphasis on speed are a bigger paradigm shift than shooting accurate at that speed, to me. It seems like a lot of folks never figure out how to switch that "fast" gear on, and are just terminally slow, or just get so focused on shooting groups on the targets that they never try easiing up and seeing how fast they can go. That's a tough mentality to break.

Yes - points are extremely important, especially at the top level. You can't leave them out there for giggles. When I started learning how to shoot faster, it took me a long time to build the feeling of speed, and the pace, determined quick transitions, etc. I temporarily sacrificed accuracy in that search. Dialing accuracy back in at a given speed level was much easier than learning the speed.

The lesson is - don't be afraid to learn how to burn. If you obsess over accuracy to the extent that you never learn speed, you'll only advance to a certain level and then get stuck. BUT, be sure to stay aware of what your points are doing, and periodically work back to shooting hyper-accurate, but at the new level of speed you've attained.

I think Max' theory also has something to do with most shooters putting more emphasis on analysing the shooting part of our game and less of the speed part.

I would bet you're right

[Brian Payne]

I used to assist in teaching K-9's for Police work. Learned early on that it was much easier to dial down the aggression in an aggressive dog, and it was almost impossible to dial it up in a passive dog.

Same sort of thing I would guess. Anyone can learn to be more accurate with practice, speed is something that is there or it isn't. It can be improved to an extent but is a little harder to obtain.

[Flexmoney]

Nice perspective Spook.

[BEDELLCUSTOM]

i think there are 2 different kinds of speed. one is a controlled speed and the other is crazy out of control speed. obviously i believe Max is meaning speed with the control factor in there since anyone can just be crazy fast and all over the place, that's my 2 cents anyway.

[Bigbadaboom]

I understand that Max is speaking from the "Teaching" aspect. I see where it would be easier to teach someone accuracy than it would be to speed them up. Where my interest in this lies is in the self training/practice arena. I'm fairly fast but it kills my accuracy so I concentrate on slowing myself down to get my hits. This kills my times. I either shoot really slow and accurate or I shoot fast and get D's and/or misses and sometimes I'm slow with D's and misses. I feel that I'm so slow when I slow myself down to get my hits because I'm "Thinking" about it. Thinking about it also effects my ability to shoot my plan. I prep a stage over and over and then when the timer goes off I start thinking "Don't go too fast or you won't get your hits" and my plan goes out the window (This happens quite a bit with me). If Max's teaching preferences are accurate (Which I believe they are) then should I clear my mind of "Thinking", allow my speed to dictate and rely on my accuracy to work itself out?

I believe that everyone has their own way of learning and everyone learns things differently. This whole aspect goes against what everyone else has told me but since I've read this artical I'm starting to re-think it.

Edited February 16, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[XRe]

If Max's teaching preferences are accurate (Which I believe they are) then should I clear my mind of "Thinking", allow my speed to dictate and rely on my accuracy to work itself out?

Ideally, as far as the shooting goes, your sights should determine your speed - absolutely as soon as you see an appropriate sight picture, the shot should break. Clear "thinking" out of it - once the beep sounds, you should be on auto-pilot, essentially

Work on sight aquisition, and finding a sight picture quickly, transitions, etc, to speed that up. Work on movement skills, draws, reloads, etc, to speed the rest of it up. Shoot accurately, but do it efficiently - and do everything else fast and efficiently.

I believe that everyone has their own way of learning and everyone learns things differently. This whole aspect goes against what everyone else has told me but since I've read this artical I'm starting to re-think it.

The danger here is what I went through a long time ago. You think you're learning and improving, etc... really, you've just moved over to one side of your comfortable box. You need to get out of the box, and try different things, and start pushing the envelope in practice (and in local matches, too). You won't know what you can do until you do it

Don't fear speed - learn how to harness it

[sfinney]

I could be wrong, but I think Max is saying something more along the lines of "it's easier to teach an great athlete to be a good marksman, than a great marksman to be an good athlete".

And with the highly intensive marksmanship training the AMU delivers to its members, which type person would you rather start with, forced to choose in an either/or situation? Coordination and natural body speed is hard to train into someone that doesn't have it. Most people can be trained to be a reasonable shot.

The danger with his qoute is that is probably taken slightly out of context.... he is talking about someone joining the AMU, not training in general - being fast rather than accurate is not the best starting point for everyone in normal walks of life, but for someone about to become a professional shooter in the AMU with huge amounts of marksmanship training applied to them, maybe that would work.

Edited February 16, 2006 by sfinney

[L9X25]

To quote XRe: "Ideally, as far as the shooting goes, your sights should determine your speed - absolutely as soon as you see an appropriate sight picture, the shot should break. Clear "thinking" out of it - once the beep sounds, you should be on auto-pilot, essentially"

That's the ticket!!!

One of the popular training tests, to see if you are applying the above quote, is to place a target at 5 yards, 15 yards, 25 yards and 50 yards. You start at the close target and fire two shots at each target. You usually hose the first target then have to refine your sight picture to see what you need to see for each sunsequent (harder) target. You can also reverse the order of engagement (start at the far target) and see how it affects your time.

If you are modulating your speed properly, your times should be very close in either direction.

The idea is to NOT set the throttle at a particular position and then run the entire stage at that speed, it is to modulate the speed to what is required by each target. This is like driving a race car on a road course .... throttle, brakes, throttle, coast, throttle, brakes, etc...

Edited February 16, 2006 by L9X25

[eerw]

I am kind of agreeing with Spook and Shaun..

for Max..working with people that have a natural athletic ability..fast on the trigger, fast on the feet, reasonable marksmanship..and young..he is able to train in accuracy and control.

The Army WCAP and AMU programs are same caliber training as most, if not all Olympic training programs..and with that you are able probably able to take a piece of coal with raw abilities and make it shine into a refined diamond...

[edwin garcia]

I am kind of agreeing with Spook and Shaun..

for Max..working with people that have a natural athletic ability..fast on the trigger, fast on the feet, reasonable marksmanship..and young..he is able to train in accuracy and control.

The Army WCAP and AMU programs are same caliber training as most, if not all Olympic training programs..and with that you are able probably able to take a piece of coal with raw abilities and make it shine into a refined diamond...

FYI

AMU has 3 new young guns in their stable. I know at least 2. KC Eusebio and Lee Dimaculangan. I think they both qualify to the criteria above.

Edited February 16, 2006 by edwin garcia

[al503]

I bet it's like pitching in HS baseball. Hard to teach speed, control comes with practice and maturity.

Same with golf. Much easier to gain control and accuracy later on than clubhead speed/distance.

[iweiny]

The idea is to NOT set the throttle at a particular position and then run the entire stage at that speed, it is to modulate the speed to what is required by each target. This is like driving a race car on a road course .... throttle, brakes, throttle, coast, throttle, brakes, etc...

It's nice to see someone else think of it this way. "throttle control"

Back on topic, I am a bit sadened to hear a top level instructor say this. I don't know if it is right or wrong but my wife and I started out real slow and real accurate. We could easily be made to feel that we will not get better. Luckily, we're getting faster all the time... So I chose not to believe him...

Either skill can be taught to someone who is willing to learn.

Ira

[spook]

Ira, don't forget Max said it was easier, not that it's impossible

[John Heiter]

I think I get this...

To be a top level shooter which is what Max is trying to generate for the AMU, you need to be both fast and accurate. I don't know a lot of people who are naturally accurate, we all had to be taught that, but I have known lots of guys who were naturally fast.

I have also seen over the years that everyone who comes out to a match starts out with a natural speed or rythm that is comfortable to them when it comes to movement and shooting. Through training you can learn to advance that speed (how many times have you heard someone talking about "pushing it" on a classifier) but those advances are slow to come over time where as accuracy is something that you can make major strides in over a weekend if you have the right coach.

We always tell new shooters that it's better to be slow and sure than fast and all over the place, but that's largely for their safety and ours. In almost every case, the guy who comes out moving a little too fast to get good hits at his skill level will advance and make it to B class ahead of the guy who is hesitant and slow moving through a stage. sfinney nailed it. "it's easier to teach an great athlete to be a good marksman, than a great marksman to be an good athlete".

[Flyin40]

Speed is something that can't be taught, either you have or you don't. You can improve your speed by doing certain things but it is still "your" speed. No matter what you do theres just not that many people who can run a 10sec 100meter. That can never be taught.

You can be taught proper technique to improve but there is a limit to it.

Now you if your talking about seeing faster thats a whole different story. You can start to understand and learn about "seeing" which will allow you to shoot faster. Don't confuse the two.

I think Max is 100% right on. Its proved everyday in sports. Baseball is one great example, if one pitcher can pitch 90 miles and hr with little control he can learn that control.

If another pitcher can throw a 80mph fast ball he won't even get looked at to go any further. Everyone has limits and I think that is what Max is looking at, Long Term Potential.

Its a funny thing, wonder how many people he as taught??? I glad to hear a top shooter say this, after shooting a yr I have seen so many people worry about going slow. I'm not talking about new shooters. This game is about speed, flat out but.....the ones with the speed and accuracy will be the ones who win.

Flyin40

[boo radley]

FYI

AMU has 3 new young guns in their stable. I know at least 2. KC Eusebio and Lee Dimaculangan. I think they both qualify to the criteria above.

But both of them are fairly accomplished, accurate shooters, no?

Here's my question: Say Lee runs a 4.8 40-yard dash. At what point does he get dropped from the team because there's someone who can run it in 4.3?

I think this is a very, very complex question. Initially, I thought, Yeah, makes sense -- say out of a population of 100 young men and women, cull out the fastest 20 in dashes, agility tests....But what if someone in that group of 80, that didn't make the cut, can just mow down a freakin' plate rack? Just the way his or her eyes and brain are wired? Do you leave him or her off the team?

[XRe]

Raw, unadulterated speed isn't necessarily a requirement, though... Somehow, I doubt the AMU would pick up TGO, but... I'd expect him to beat, or have the potential to beat, all the AMU guys

[Jake Di Vita]

If there is anything I have learned, talent is NOT a pre-requisite to success, nor does it mean you will succeed.

[markm]

Maybe we ought to wait for Max to return from the Big dog invitational as see what he "REALLY" means? Taking one sentence and conjecturing on his theory of shooting is a little much. He will be the first to tell you that at his level, most of the guys can shoot most of the stages in about the same time, but points win. I saw him get down on himself for shooting 3 C's in a 32 rd. field course.

[edwin garcia]

FYI

AMU has 3 new young guns in their stable. I know at least 2. KC Eusebio and Lee Dimaculangan. I think they both qualify to the criteria above.

But both of them are fairly accomplished, accurate shooters, no?

Here's my question: Say Lee runs a 4.8 40-yard dash. At what point does he get dropped from the team because there's someone who can run it in 4.3?

I think this is a very, very complex question. Initially, I thought, Yeah, makes sense -- say out of a population of 100 young men and women, cull out the fastest 20 in dashes, agility tests....But what if someone in that group of 80, that didn't make the cut, can just mow down a freakin' plate rack? Just the way his or her eyes and brain are wired? Do you leave him or her off the team?

I don't have the answer to that question. Good point though. I guess we'll hafta wait until Max answers all our question.

[benos]

Leaving out the ability to perform under national/world championship pressure, judging from history, Max's assessment seems fairly accurate. These truly great IPSC shooters- TGO, Todd Jarrett, The Burner, Eric Graffel, The Jet (from the Steel Challenge days), and Max himself, all started out the sport with excessively speedy tendencies.

This also makes sense from a temperament perspective. Many of those listed are fine motor skilled, or "ST's," except Robbie, who's gross-motor skilled (SF). And most have strong spacial perception as well (P). Under pressure, P-types's vision will "open up" - they can "keep track of everything at once." J-types, on the other hand, visual skills tend to close down, or tunnel vision, under pressure. A brief summary of the E/I-STP temperament is that they are extremely coordinated, capable of quick, precise movements, fantastically visually and perceptually skilled, they're very adaptable (when things go wrong), and also tend to be risk-takers. Their only weakness, as far as being a championship IPSC shooter, is they may be lacking in discipline, initially. Once an STP realizes he must learn to shoot accurately as well as quickly in order to win consistently - if he has enough drive to be successful - he will devote himself to mastering the basic fundamentals. All the above listed shooters have followed this learning pattern.

be

[BigDave]

This also makes sense from a temperament perspective. Many of those listed are fine motor skilled, or "ST's," except Robbie, who's gross-motor skilled (SF). And most have strong spacial perception as well (P). Under pressure, P-types's vision will "open up" - they can "keep track of everything at once." J-types, on the other hand, visual skills tend to close down, or tunnel vision, under pressure. A brief summary of the E/I-STP temperament is that they are extremely coordinated, capable of quick, precise movements, fantastically visually and perceptually skilled, they're very adaptable (when things go wrong), and also tend to be risk-takers. Their only weakness, as far as being a championship IPSC shooter, is they may be lacking in discipline, initially. Once an STP realizes he must learn to shoot accurately as well as quickly in order to win consistently - if he has enough drive to be successful - he will devote himself to mastering the basic fundamentals. All the above listed shooters have followed this learning pattern.

be

So, what you're saying is that there is no hope for us INTJ's - at least in the speed games?