What Constitutes A Legal Provisional Ss Division Holster?

[richardschennberg]

It does not matter if Dick Heini is a great contributor to the sport, great person etc ……

It's O.K. to be right. It's fine to tell anyone that you're right and someone else is wrong. However, based on my experience, it's even more important to be polite when you expect to win an argument or disagreement. Since the single-stackers that were primarily in the 1911 Society are about to have their rules replaced by the USPSA Provisional Single Stack Division rules, I suggest "taking over" in a manner that minimizes any second thoughts or hurt feelings. The bottom line is that we can only have one rulebook and one set of equipment rules, and in the long run we are better off that way so that everyone can use the same gear in more matches.

[MarkS_A18138]

What the hell are they doing changing the rules already? Most of us have already purchased holsters. I hope the other matches don't follow the nationals. USPSA needs to put there foot down and stick with the REAL rules and not Mr. Heini's rules!

[jasmap]

I purchased a Bladetech DOH specifically for this match. I know I am one lowly shooter but I read the Single Stack rules before purchasing it and now I can't because of 1 person's thoughts. I have the utmost respect for him and for his contributions as I'm sure he has contributed more to the sport than I have or maybe ever will but this is a bit much. THE DOH HOLSTER IS WITHIN THE USPSA SINGLE STACK RULES and that should be the end of it. How can he merge with USPSA and ignore the rules? What if he said only 7 round magazines are allowed? Where does USPSA and the shooters draw the line? I understand that its merely a holster issue but it is an issue and there's no way around it. As I said before THE DOH HOLSTER IS WITHIN THE USPSA SINGLE STACK RULES and that should be the end of it.

[GeorgeInNePa]

I purchased a Bladetech DOH specifically for this match. I know I am one lowly shooter but I read the Single Stack rules before purchasing it and now I can't because of 1 person's thoughts. I have the utmost respect for him and for his contributions as I'm sure he has contributed more to the sport than I have or maybe ever will but this is a bit much. THE DOH HOLSTER IS WITHIN THE USPSA SINGLE STACK RULES and that should be the end of it. How can he merge with USPSA and ignore the rules? What if he said only 7 round magazines are allowed? Where does USPSA and the shooters draw the line? I understand that its merely a holster issue but it is an issue and there's no way around it. As I said before THE DOH HOLSTER IS WITHIN THE USPSA SINGLE STACK RULES and that should be the end of it.

From USPSA.com:

USPSA NEWS and Announcements

Rules Clarification for the USPSA Single Stack Nationals 1911 Single Stack Division holster rules have generated several questions that need analysis. We will have a final USPSA clarification concerning holsters for 1911 Single Stack division posted Tuesday 7 March 2006.

[Bdavis]

There has been a common theme in these posts, that the Single Stack Society approached the USPSA to get USPSA sanctioning. The Singe Stack Class is now is its 12th year, and we have never been interested in USPSA sanctioning. If the USPSA approached the 1911 Society that means merging the rules may take one route; if the 1911 Society approached the USPSA then another route would be called for.

It is also my understanding that this is not really a rule change n the middle of the match; rather a misunderstanding of rules, the provisions and such. As we can all atest (at least those of us who have been shooting for a few years), rule changes seem to almost always lad to equipment changes and the movemenet of the division away from its intended purpose. I would site Ron Avery's article in the latest issue of The Front Sight.

As I understand it now (before the match has taken place) we have holster issues, type of gun issues (ligth rails) and caliber issues; questions about prize table or thereof. In 11 years none of these has been an issue for the 1911 Society. The first year it becomes something of a sanctioned match, we have issue before the first shot is fired. Maybe the issue is not the USPSA or the 1991 Society; maybe we all just need to look in the mirror.

Bill

[jasmap]

There has been a common theme in these posts, that the Single Stack Society approached the USPSA to get USPSA sanctioning. The Singe Stack Class is now is its 12th year, and we have never been interested in USPSA sanctioning. If the USPSA approached the 1911 Society that means merging the rules may take one route; if the 1911 Society approached the USPSA then another route would be called for.

It is also my understanding that this is not really a rule change n the middle of the match; rather a misunderstanding of rules, the provisions and such. As we can all atest (at least those of us who have been shooting for a few years), rule changes seem to almost always lad to equipment changes and the movemenet of the division away from its intended purpose. I would site Ron Avery's article in the latest issue of The Front Sight.

As I understand it now (before the match has taken place) we have holster issues, type of gun issues (ligth rails) and caliber issues; questions about prize table or thereof. In 11 years none of these has been an issue for the 1911 Society. The first year it becomes something of a sanctioned match, we have issue before the first shot is fired. Maybe the issue is not the USPSA or the 1991 Society; maybe we all just need to look in the mirror.

Bill

I'm not real sure where you're coming from but I didn't read anything about blaming the 1911 Society or USPSA. It really doesn't matter who approached who but the registration form specifically says, and I quote "Rules: USPSA Provisional Single Stack Rules Apply." The only issue is that the DOH was said to be unwanted by Mr. Heinie and if that's the case then it is going against the Single Stack Provisional Rules set forth by the BOD of USPSA as this holster IS LEGAL. This is not a knock on Mr Heinie as he has been a great contributor to the shooting sports as a whole and he is appreciated. It's just that with accepting the rules of USPSA, no matter who approached who, rules can't be disregarded because of personal choice. As GeorgeInNePa wrote, USPSA will have a decision made and posted soon.

[gmshtr]

Hell, almost makes me which I had a duty rig for a 1911! Oh, wait a minute, I've already pulled that one!

Good luck with all that.

[Bill H]

If we are talking about the Blade Tech DOH as being the only problem holster can't this be solved by the shooters with these holsters purchasing a tek-lok for $8.95 and turning it into the allowed type holster? Will this work? Are there more DOH holsters out there?

Edited March 7, 2006 by Bill H

[Fossil]

If we are talking about the Blade Tech DOH as being the only problem holster can't this be solved by the shooters with these holsters purchasing a tek-lok for $8.95 and turning it into the allowed type holster? Will this work? Are there more DOH holsters out there?

The USPSA rules state clearly that the Blade Tech DOH holster is legal for the Provisional Single Stack Division, the shooters should not have to change anything, the USPSA BOD simple has to enforce the rules, end of story.

[jasmap]

"Single Stack Holsters Holster rules for the USPSA Single Stack Division will continue as written through 2006. The BOD felt it was in the best interest of the growth of 1911 Single Stack Division to not change any rules before 2007 if at all possible. The BOD is gathering data throughout 2006 to revise the rules for 2007 to keep the purpose and design of 1911 Single Stack Division from being diluted.

Expect changes in 2007.

Michael Voigt

USPSA President."

Therefore the Bladetech DOH is legal for this and all USPSA Provisional Single Stack matches until further notice by the USPSA BOD.

[LPatterson]

"Single Stack Holsters Holster rules for the USPSA Single Stack Division will continue as written through 2006. The BOD felt it was in the best interest of the growth of 1911 Single Stack Division to not change any rules before 2007 if at all possible. The BOD is gathering data throughout 2006 to revise the rules for 2007 to keep the purpose and design of 1911 Single Stack Division from being diluted.

Expect changes in 2007.

Michael Voigt

USPSA President."

Therefore the Bladetech DOH is legal for this and all USPSA Provisional Single Stack matches until further notice by the USPSA BOD.

I wish I had seen this a couple of weeks ago before I placed an order for a DOH.

How is this going to affect a DOH in Production where it is legal (for now)?

[bgary]

How is this going to affect a DOH in Production where it is legal (for now)?

My guess (my crystal ball is out for repair right now), is that NROI and the Board are going to have to decide whether the DOH is a "competition holster of the race-gun type". That language is used to define legal holsters for both the SingleStack and Production divisions.... and the core issue is whether or not the design of the holster represents a competitive advantage which is contrary to the division rules.

So if the DOH ends up being classified a "race gun type" holster, I suspect that ruling would affect its use in both SS and Production. I would anticipate, though, that at the same time NROI and/or the Board would clarify just what a "race gun type" holster is, so that we have some measurements or other objective parameters that would make this an easier issue to resolve going forward.

Bruce

[shred]

In this particular case, the Blade-Tech DOH can be reasonably easily converted to remove the D & O parts. I don't really want to do it, since it's not like the DOH puts the gun anywhere other holsters don't, but it is possible.

[GeorgeInNePa]

How is this going to affect a DOH in Production where it is legal (for now)?

My guess (my crystal ball is out for repair right now), is that NROI and the Board are going to have to decide whether the DOH is a "competition holster of the race-gun type". That language is used to define legal holsters for both the SingleStack and Production divisions.... and the core issue is whether or not the design of the holster represents a competitive advantage which is contrary to the division rules.

So if the DOH ends up being classified a "race gun type" holster, I suspect that ruling would affect its use in both SS and Production. I would anticipate, though, that at the same time NROI and/or the Board would clarify just what a "race gun type" holster is, so that we have some measurements or other objective parameters that would make this an easier issue to resolve going forward.

Bruce

Amazing.

[Gregory_k]

DOH is within the rules, just at the edge of rules, Same as a WWII issue leather flap holster w/ widow maker is with in the rules, just at the other end.

DOH should be the holster all other holster makers strive to make.

[Merlin Orr]

DOH should be the holster all other holster makers strive to make.

+ a big 1!

[GeorgeInNePa]

What I want to know is, will there be restrictions on the color and/or design of the cover garments?

[Merlin Orr]

What I want to know is, will there be restrictions on the color and/or design of the cover garments?

Tsk Tsk, George...

[driver8M3]

What I want to know is, will there be restrictions on the color and/or design of the cover garments?

[mlmiller1]

It seems to me if the 1911 society doesn't want to follow the rules they agreed to follow they will need to do a few things. I think if they say no DOH holsters, they need to send out a letter to each & every competitor with a response card in it stating they won't allow that holster & giving each person a chance to get their entry money back. Posting it on a website or something isn't necessarily going to work. Just because we look at websites doesn't mean everyone does. That response card should be postpaid & it should be required that each shooter return it stating they have read this rule "deviation" & they either agree to not use one of those holsters or they want their money back. The folks that don't return their response card should be contacted by phone if possible & confirmation should be made at that time on their decision. If they can't get hold of the person or the person fails to respond in a timely fashion, the entry fee should be returned with a letter stating why it was sent back. You can't change rules after you start allowing sign-ups. We all know someone would show up with a DOH & not be allowed to shoot. That would not be fair! They would be out lots of travel money, vacation time, etc. all because one group doesn't like their legal holster. The 1911 society is going to have to either allow the holsters or take drastic steps to be certain noone shows up & gets turned away. That is the only fair way to deal with it in my NSHO. MLM

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm missing something. Is the DOH legal or not? I'm not shooting the match but it does concern me since I use a DOH in Production as well. I think that the rules cover this part pretty well. There is a maximum distance from the torso the holster can be. If you're one of those skinny guys, the DOH may not work for you, but this has been the rule for a long time. Speaking for myself as a larger (alright, great big fat guy) shooter, The DOH is well within that distance. The TEK-Lok and belt loops shove the holster into my body.

[GeorgeInNePa]

I'm missing something. Is the DOH legal or not? I'm not shooting the match but it does concern me since I use a DOH in Production as well. I think that the rules cover this part pretty well. There is a maximum distance from the torso the holster can be. If you're one of those skinny guys, the DOH may not work for you, but this has been the rule for a long time. Speaking for myself as a larger (alright, great big fat guy) shooter, The DOH is well within that distance. The TEK-Lok and belt loops shove the holster into my body.

Maybe legal, maybe not next year. Read post #37.

[Chuck Anderson]

I read Voigt's post and #37. Why Voigt chose not to actually address the issue I don't know. Simple thing to say, DOH is legal. Instead he uses a bunch of vague terms.

If the Board and NROI are going to decide that the DOH is a competition holster, well that wouldn't really surprise me. I'm doing the sponsor coordinating for Area 1 this year and one of the things that I've found is that there is a lot of hard feeling for USPSA from a lot of vendors. There are a lot of folks that either supported USPSA or built products for USPSA and then got crapped on by them. S&W being the first one that pops to mind. It took years for S&W to want to jump back in the game and they're back in big time with guns that are very competetive in 4 out of 6 divisions. Does anyone think it's a good idea to tell another manufacturer, hey, we've been using your products for years, you spent alot of money on them, we even just had an article in Front Sight about how good they are, oh by the way, they're illegal now.

And once again, USPSA looks like they want to mess with one specific vendor, i.e. Vanek, and not address whatever their perceived problem is. How many other Kydex manufacturers offer holsters that bring the holster body away from the shooters body, most of the guys that actually mold kydex. USPSA has a rule that covers this, there is no reason to change it.

[GeorgeInNePa]

-SNIP-

USPSA has a rule that covers this, there is no reason to change it.

Brother, I agree completely!

[Vlad]

The bitch of it is that USPSA needs to tighten up the rules around production and clarify those of SS. The problem is that everyone would have a heart episode if all the needed changes where done at once. I think they are trying to trickle the changes in. Personally, I think some changes are needed.