What Constitutes A Legal Provisional Ss Division Holster?

[Greg Jones]

I don't see where this was covered here specifically before, so excuse me if it has and I missed it. In reading the rules for the Provisional SS Division, it states this about holsters:

Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification, all retention features of the holster must be used. All holsters must fully cover the trigger when the pistol is holstered. The front of the holster may be cut no lower than 1/4 inch below the ejection port.

Also looking at the rules for the 1911 Society and the SSC, the rules state this about holsters:

Only safe holsters and magazine pouches, on waist level belt, worn behind a line drawn down the center of the shooter's side are permitted. Belt must pass through pant loops or be attached to pants belt by velcro or keepers.

Holsters and magazine pouches designed specifically for competition or to gain a competitive advantage are not in the spirit of the 1911 Society and are not permitted.

Holsters and magazine pouches should be designed for continuous daily carry and should be reasonably concealable.

I interpreted this to mean that race holsters like the CR Speed, Safariland 012, etc. are not SS legal but holsters like the Blade-tech DOH Dropped and Offset Holster would be legal. Now I see on another forum that Drop Loop/Offset loop Holsters will not be permitted at the Single Stack Classic/USPSA Provisional Single Stack National match, which is being run under the Provisional SS Division rules. Now I don't plan on shooting this match, but I would like to know if the Blade-tech DOH holster is legal under Provisional SS rules, or is it considered a race gun type holster?

[ima45dv8]

It's always been my understanding that the Offset and Dropped Offset holsters were developed to provide some relief for ladies who have those nice curves. While great to admire they tend to place the gun in an inward-tilted attitude and require drawing the gun up into ribs or armpits. The offset helps put the gun in a more neutral/vertical position. On most men however, it simply moves the butt of the gun out away from the body for a faster draw. Gives you a cheap yet secure speed rig.

I'm not about to say no one carries in one, 'cause if I do there will instantly be 3 pages of replies telling me about how so-and-so does, and how tactical they *really* are. I've just never seen anyone do so.

A good rule of thumb might be, if you wouldn't try to carry it concealed, it probably isn't the right holster for this division.

Edited February 13, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Wildman]

DOH is OK in Production, and the rules are similar for Single Stack. I asked the same question back in January, and was told that DOH is fine.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Any holster that works in Production will work in Single Stack.

1) The butt of the gun must be no lower than the top of the belt.

2) The gun must be no more than 50mm from your body.

3) The holster must cover the front of the gun to within 1/4" of the ejection port.

4) It cannot be of the "race" type.

Those are the only rules, along with the postioning of the holster on the hip. This is not IDPA and "carry" holsters are not required.

[Carmoney]

Here's what Mr. Heinie says:

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136024

Hey, I know, how about we all agree to just let this new Single Stack division get off to a great start without the same kind of pissing and moaning that's poisoning the atmosphere in Production division right now, OK? Sound good?

[GeorgeInNePa]

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/1911_Single_Stack.pdf

Holsters, and magazine pouches.

Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification, all

retention features of the holster must be used. All holsters must fully cover the trigger

when the pistol is holstered. The front of the holster may be cut no lower than ¼ inch

below the ejection port.

Magazine pouches should be designed for continuous daily carry and should be

reasonably concealable.

Holsters and magazine pouches shall be worn in accordance with the diagram illustrated

in Appendix F3 in the current edition of the USPSA rulebook.

Rule 5.2.3.1 does not apply.

So the Single Stack Nationals will be run with rules that don't follow the USPSA rulebook?

[Carmoney]

Cool!! We made it 20 minutes--good start--let's build on that!!

[Greg Jones]

Hey, I know, how about we all agree to just let this new Single Stack division get off to a great start without the same kind of pissing and moaning that's poisoning the atmosphere in Production division right now, OK? Sound good?

I don't see any pissing and moaning in this thread and I hope it remains that way. I posed the question in an attempt to determine what is and what is not legal for the new division at all USPSA matches. I'm all for getting the new division off to a great start, but would you not agree that the first step in reaching that goal is arriving at a clear and consistent understanding (and application) of the rules of the division? So far the consensus seems to be that the DOH holster is legal for USPSA Production division. The holster rules for the Single Stack division are identical to the USPSA Production division, yet the DOH holster will not be permitted at the USPSA Single Stack Nationals?

[Wildman]

From the entry form:

"Rules: USPSA Provisional Single Stack Rules Apply."

I'm done. JJH

[Gary Stevens]

Fellows this is a situation that I wish had never happened, but it has reared it's head, and as of now is still in flux. It is not my match, only the President can speak for a National Championship, I am just trying to facilitate the new division. That being said, "Houston, we have a problem."

When I drafted the rules for the Provisional Single Stack Division I took a lot of the SSC rules, some of the IDPA rules, and some of the Produciton Division rules. The holster and magazine pouch wording were copied directly from the Production Division rules. My feeling was that if a particular holster was good in Production it would be good in the Single Stack. I have, through NROI, communicated that the DOH was OK for the Single Stack since this was being ran under USPSA guidelines.

For philosophical reasons Richard Henie has banned the DOH from this match. This banning of a holster in a USPSA match, that USPSA has sanctioned, has yet to play out. The end results may not be what I and others have worked so hard to achieve. Ultimately this may or may not be the USPSA Single Stack National Championship we have work for. My suggestion has been to let the match proceed, and if the 1911 Society chooses to not participate in the match next year, because of the holster issue, then that is fine, but not to potentially derail this match at this point.

Again, I am just a bystander in this issue, but I thought those who are attending the match should be aware of the situation. Especially if your holster is a DOH, mine is not.

Gary

Edited February 15, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[RickB]

Not THAT many years ago, the Indy 500 was run under different rules than every other race on the circuit. Parties agreed that the event was important enough to not get into a terminal pi**ing match over rules, and the show went on. If you're signed up for the event, and you were going to use your DOH holster, just use something else, instead.

[Gary Stevens]

I think the most important word in your post is "agreed". I doubt that one party agreed to run the race under a set of rules, and then unilaterally changed the rules they didn't like after the race had been announced.

Gary

[ima45dv8]

Gary, thanks again for all the work (and blood, sweat and tears ) you've put into this. Just so you know, at a recent match we had a full 25% of the shooters (6 of 23) shooting in the new division. It's off to a good start around here.

[Greg Jones]

Thanks for the update Gary, it is appreciated as well as all of the hard work you have put in to make the SS division a reality. My thanks to you!

[SteveZ]

I think the most important word in your post is "agreed". I doubt that one party agreed to run the race under a set of rules, and then unilaterally changed the rules they didn't like after the race had been announced.

Gary

So it seems that the problem is that USPSA rules allow the DOH holster and Richard historically hasn't allowed the DOH holster? Why not just get an equipment variance from the RD (Mike Voigt) under rule 3.3.1 and call it a "local rule" for the sake of this match? That way the match can peacefully go on without all this finger pointing.

[richardschennberg]

So it seems that the problem is that USPSA rules allow the DOH holster and Richard historically hasn't allowed the DOH holster? Why not just get an equipment variance from the RD (Mike Voigt) under rule 3.3.1 and call it a "local rule" for the sake of this match? That way the match can peacefully go on without all this finger pointing.

I agree. Further, I would suggest that someone on the 1911 Society BOD politely ask Dick Heine why the DOH holster has been banned in the past. If the reason makes any sense at all, perhaps the USPSA BOD could review the issue. Let the Single Stack Society make their own ruling on this holster for the 2006 Single Stack Classic, and let the USPSA BOD decide if a loophole in the Production Division and Single Stack holster rules let some overyly racy holsters in. I think we should make every effort to allow the 2006 Single Stack Classic to be USPSA sanctioned, but I also think we should give shooters a year or two to use their existing holsters and mag pouches before tightening the rules anywhere else.

[GeorgeInNePa]

So it seems that the problem is that USPSA rules allow the DOH holster and Richard historically hasn't allowed the DOH holster? Why not just get an equipment variance from the RD (Mike Voigt) under rule 3.3.1 and call it a "local rule" for the sake of this match? That way the match can peacefully go on without all this finger pointing.

I agree. Further, I would suggest that someone on the 1911 Society BOD politely ask Dick Heine why the DOH holster has been banned in the past. If the reason makes any sense at all, perhaps the USPSA BOD could review the issue. Let the Single Stack Society make their own ruling on this holster for the 2006 Single Stack Classic, and let the USPSA BOD decide if a loophole in the Production Division and Single Stack holster rules let some overyly racy holsters in. I think we should make every effort to allow the 2006 Single Stack Classic to be USPSA sanctioned, but I also think we should give shooters a year or two to use their existing holsters and mag pouches before tightening the rules anywhere else.

Yes, shoot the match this year under whatever rules it takes. BUT, next year, put SS in with Limited and Lim-10 at our nationals. That way we don't have to worry about anyone else's rules, and we can leave our holsters alone.

[richardschennberg]

Yes, shoot the match this year under whatever rules it takes. BUT, next year, put SS in with Limited and Lim-10 at our nationals. That way we don't have to worry about anyone else's rules, and we can leave our holsters alone.

There is a great benefit to letting the 1911 Society help run the USPSA Single Stack Nationals. They have a semi-permanent relationship with PASA, lots of volunteers, and decent sponsorship. I do think we have to be geographically fair, so the 2007 Single Stack Nationals should probably be held somewhere out west. I still would like the Single Stack Classic to be an USPSA match when it is not the Nationals. That is what "Other" Level III championships are for.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Yes, shoot the match this year under whatever rules it takes. BUT, next year, put SS in with Limited and Lim-10 at our nationals. That way we don't have to worry about anyone else's rules, and we can leave our holsters alone.

There is a great benefit to letting the 1911 Society help run the USPSA Single Stack Nationals. They have a semi-permanent relationship with PASA, lots of volunteers, and decent sponsorship. I do think we have to be geographically fair, so the 2007 Single Stack Nationals should probably be held somewhere out west. I still would like the Single Stack Classic to be an USPSA match when it is not the Nationals. That is what "Other" Level III championships are for.

Fine, do whatever you guys like with SS. I really don't care. If Richard thinks the DOH is too racey, too gamey, too whatever, it doesn't matter to me.

I see absolutely zero reason to revisit the holster rules for Production.

[Carmoney]

Fine, do whatever you guys like with SS. I really don't care.

George, what do you mean "you guys"? You're a single-stack shooter, aren't you??

[GeorgeInNePa]

Fine, do whatever you guys like with SS. I really don't care.

George, what do you mean "you guys"? You're a single-stack shooter, aren't you??

Yes...and no.

We have a single stack match at our club every year. I shoot it every year with a holster I originally bought for IDPA. I don't think it's legal anymore. It's an older Helwig that has a lot of offset, but no drop. It's what I will probably use for SS when I shoot it.

I'm primarily an Open/Limited shooter and I shoot Production during the winter. Who cares about 9mm Blazer cases?

"You guys" means, well, you guys. Whoever makes the decisions and whoever wants to decide the rules for SS. If the rules appeal to me, I'll shoot the division, if not I won't. Right now, the rules make sense. It looks like a USPSA division for single stacks. If they start talking carry holsters and mag pouches(might as well add a cover garment), I'll pass.

[Carmoney]

I'm primarily an Open/Limited shooter and I shoot Production during the winter. Who cares about 9mm Blazer cases?

I like to shoot Wolf stuff through my 1911 .45s for the same reason.....a couple guys at the range bitched about the mess at first, but they all seem to agree that the Wolf cases just sorta rust away after awhile....

[richardschennberg]

I see absolutely zero reason to revisit the holster rules for Production.

I don't either. However, I do know Gary Stevens and Dick Heine. Both are great contributors to the sport. Gary needs no introduction. Dick has been a generous sponsor to USPSA, IPSC, and Single Stack championships for many years, and is a founding life member of the 1911 Society. I think we owe it to him to at least consider his point of view. I personally think the USPSA should and will vote to keep Production and Single Stack holster rules unchanged, but it deserves a debate followed by a vote.

[Gary Stevens]

This is not a USPSA issue. The DOH is a legal holster as it is not cut more than 1/4 inch below the ejection port, as is required in Production and Single Stack rule, and does not carry the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt as in rule 5.2.7.2 (at least not on the one's I have seen). As a matter of fact the holster was specifically thought of when I decided to not include the exemption granted by rule 5.2.3.1 because females or others who are short waisted, could get some relief using a DOH. The issue is, with all due respect to Richard, is a MD allowed to change USPSA rules at a USPSA sanctioned match, especially one that has been billed as the USPSA 1911 Single Stack Nationals.

I am reasonably confident that all of this will be settled ground by the time of the match.

Gary

[Fossil]

I was not going to get involved in this matter, but, USPSA rules are for everyone shooting USPSA, if this is a USPSA sanctioned match, the match should be shot under USPSA rules, end of story.

It does not matter if Dick Heini is a great contributor to the sport, great person etc ……

If Mr. Heini has philosophical reasons to ban the aforementioned holsters that were specifically allowed by USPSA rules, that is his prerogative, but under those circumstances USPSA should immediately withdraw from sanctioning this match. Call it the Single Stack National Championship, not USPSA Single Stack National Championship.

(Why not just get an equipment variance from the RD (Mike Voigt) under rule 3.3.1 and call it a "local rule" for the sake of this match? That way the match can peacefully go on without all this finger pointing.)

Nobody is finger pointing, just playing by the rules (USPSA rules)

Why do we need rules and regulations if the main body of the sport (USPSA) deviates from the rules?