L10 and revolver adding optic survey?

[392heminut]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

Fwiw Omg finally my ocd in BS is acknowledged btw

Brother, that one was epic!

[Makicjf]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:49 PM, Chillywig said:

Maybe saving face is what would make me hesitate to shoot revo in open. I am not the fastest guy but normally finish closer to the top than the bottom at local matches. If someone didn't know I brought the 627 vs open gun reviewing the scores would just think I had a terrible day. Not that it really matters but....

I shoot my v comp in open with major ammo and generally do pretty well on field courses.  I get smacked on classifiers , as reloads are much slower, a or capacity mandated when a true open blaster would just be blasting away.

 I've toyed with your idea, perhaps signing up as Jason "Open Revo" Wilson, but always back away from it.  That feels prideful or attention seeking to me.  I'm not special, I'm just the fool who thought his Honda Civic with a hood scoop and growler muffler could race with the muscle cars. 

  I do understand the wish to make a distinction, though.

  I usually just use percentages gleaned from nationals to judge how I "finished".  The ",handicaps" would be:

Open roughly 50 %ish for Revo, 55% for dotted Revo

CO/LO  60% ish (65% for a dot)

Lim 65% (70 for a dotted Revo)

Production 15 80% (75% with a dotted Revo)

SS 75% (70%) with a dotted Revo.

Over the course of a match if you add in those percentages, you'll roughly find how your performance compared to other competitors with different equipment

Yesterdays match I was third in open.  I know the winner was actually shooting a slide ride Cz

So if I add in %35 percent we had a similar day, ending in essentially a "tie".

I also know, generally where this competitor finishes at big events, so I can further gauge my performance.  It was an at skill level performance which would land me at roughly 75-78 percent of the truly capable Revo shooters. Alchemaic? Yes. Useful for self assessment?  Yes.

Jason

  

 

Edited Monday at 11:30 AM by Makicjf

[Darqusoull13]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:49 PM, Chillywig said:

Maybe saving face is what would make me hesitate to shoot revo in open. I am not the fastest guy but normally finish closer to the top than the bottom at local matches. If someone didn't know I brought the 627 vs open gun reviewing the scores would just think I had a terrible day. Not that it really matters but....

If the quality of your day at a USPSA revolves around the number associated with your finish, you might want to think about why. 

Time spent with friends, improving personal skills and just generally having fun are far more important to me than the number. 

Back on the topic, if the Revo guys want to do it as a group, then I'm all for it. It's their division and they understand it much better than I do. 

L10 needs to be deleted forever. 40 is dead. Participation is at an all time low. It's time to delete a division before adding any new ones. 

[PatJones]

Most of the folks still driving a manual transmission aren't looking to upgrade to a dual-clutch automatic.....

[shred]

9 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

If the quality of your day at a USPSA revolves around the number associated with your finish, you might want to think about why. 

Time spent with friends, improving personal skills and just generally having fun are far more important to me than the number. 

Back on the topic, if the Revo guys want to do it as a group, then I'm all for it. It's their division and they understand it much better than I do. 

L10 needs to be deleted forever. 40 is dead. Participation is at an all time low. It's time to delete a division before adding any new ones. 

 

L10 mustered all of four shooters for Nationals.  It didn't even rate any awards.  Clearly there are not a raft of put-upon folk in capacity-limited states that need it so they can be competitive when travelling which is the standard excuse for keeping it around.

 

 

 

[Joe4d]

Yeh but are the people shooting limited at area and nationals,  getting their classification with L10 hit factors ?
Havent kept up with rules, but dont a class in one gun now translate to other guns you havent shot ?
When I was in Hawaii they shot open and limited/ standard , but it was a 10 round state.. Classifier scores were being sent in as Limited... I brought it up and the Match director started sending them in to USPSA as Limited 10,,  granted at the time for most classifiers it didnt matter, but from what I have heard it may now.
 

[Darqusoull13]

13 hours ago, shred said:

 

L10 mustered all of four shooters for Nationals.  It didn't even rate any awards.  Clearly there are not a raft of put-upon folk in capacity-limited states that need it so they can be competitive when travelling which is the standard excuse for keeping it around.

 

 

 

Exactly! 20 wheelgunners showed up and L10 could only muster 4. 

[MikeBurgess]

Lets not forget that Limited the division that just a few years ago was the #1 participation division only mustered 44 competitors.

 

Iron sights are dead and should be relegated to class status, all divisions should allow dots (none should require) if you want to shoot irons then check the class box, just like Senior or LE 

 

[Ice36]

After talking with some revo guys this weekend everyone said they didn't want optics in revo, and like one said how do you pick the world team since they don't allow it, so how would they qualify? There are a lot of things to consider before making changes without much thought on how it will affect those in the division. 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, Ice36 said:

After talking with some revo guys this weekend everyone said they didn't want optics in revo, and like one said how do you pick the world team since they don't allow it, so how would they qualify? There are a lot of things to consider before making changes without much thought on how it will affect those in the division. 

Is anyone picking the world revolver team ? or is it,, umm is there anyone willing and able to go with a revolver ?

 

[Ice36]

58 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Is anyone picking the world revolver team ? or is it,, umm is there anyone willing and able to go with a revolver ?

 

There are enough qualified and that want to go this year to fill the team. But if you mix irons and optics in the future, how do you qualify since its based-on match performance and IPSC world shoot is and iron sight division. So, can an optic shooter bump an iron sight shooter, this would be a bad precedence for other divisions 

top 10 qualified

Edited Tuesday at 10:40 PM by Ice36

[Joe4d]

54 minutes ago, Ice36 said:

There are enough qualified and that want to go this year to fill the team. But if you mix irons and optics in the future, how do you qualify since its based-on match performance and IPSC world shoot is and iron sight division. So, can an optic shooter bump an iron sight shooter, this would be a bad precedence for other divisions 

top 10 qualified

you would have to have 2 divisions,, Iron and optics, and pick your team from those that shoot in Irons if its a match performance thing. No different than you wouldnt pick top CO shooter to shoot production. Optic revolver simply wouldnt be qualified, as there is no corresponding IPSC division.

[Ice36]

 

14 hours ago, Joe4d said:

you would have to have 2 divisions,, Iron and optics, and pick your team from those that shoot in Irons if its a match performance thing. No different than you wouldnt pick top CO shooter to shoot production. Optic revolver simply wouldnt be qualified, as there is no corresponding IPSC division.

USPSA survey is to have one division with irons or optics option. They are not looking to add another division that is the big issue with the survey. 

Edited Wednesday at 01:58 PM by Ice36

[shred]

Here's what we do-- make L10 15 rounds and dot optional.  Clearly nobody really cares about 10 round states with the Production bump.  Leave it major/minor.  16 round Major with a dot might be interesting against 24 round LO minor with a dot.  Maybe it'll even drive another evolutionary step in dot robustness...

 

Revo IDK.  I don't see adding dots making it any less-dead than it's been since 1991 when hicaps outnumbered single-stacks at Nationals.  Maybe all the revo shooters at a match can vote if they want 'em or not at that match...  Motivation to bring all your friends 

 

[Chillywig]

What is the hesitation making the SC and USPSA divisions the same? 

 

Is this all CO and really PCCs fault? 

[Joe4d]

15 minutes ago, Chillywig said:

What is the hesitation making the SC and USPSA divisions the same? 

 

Is this all CO and really PCCs fault? 

well they pretty much did and created a bunch of silly divisions.. They have steel challenge divisions that are separated by things that absolutely dont matter in steel challenge.
Like power factor, mag funnels, capacity. 

[Thomas H]

On 9/15/2024 at 11:25 AM, Bosshoss said:

That is the same BS argument that was used when they were discussing the 8 shot rule and it didn't bring out the ICORE shooters. Most of the people shooting USPSA in revolver division are shooting revolvers because they want to, not because they have a ICORE gun laying around and it is another chance to use it.

 

Same BS argument?

 

No, it was the literal opinion of a revolver guy and about 5 of his friends.  Calling that a "BS argument" is ridiculous.  Those guys would literally go back to shooting REV in USPSA if they could use an optic.  They can't see without it.

 

This isn't their argument as to why everyone should allow it---this is their comment about why THEY want it to be allowed.  If you don't think it is a valid argument for a national change to a division, that's fine. 

 

If you think that's "a BS argument", that's nonsense. 

 

On 9/14/2024 at 11:18 PM, pskys2 said:

In all honesty I don't see huge numbers of OSR vs ISR in SC?  At the A3 SC Champs we had 9 ISR & 6 OSR, 3 OSR also shot ISR so there were 3 OSR only.  My old eyes need help, but I had my lenses cut for the FS distance and don't feel it's a burden.  

 

These days, I see a number of people trying out OSR in SC, often more than ISR.  (Neither is a LARGE number, but an interesting number.  People who buy revolvers these days normally have enough money to stack an optic on it, because boy are revolvers expensive!  Yikes.)

 

Recently we had a lot more shoot ISR than OSR during our Thursday night matches, but that's because we were all trying to get in some trigger time before the ICORE regional. 

 

 

....I don't really know whether or not I think that their commentary is a valid reason to change a national division.  It just showed me that there were some things about the situation that literally had never occurred to me.

[Bosshoss]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

Same BS argument?

 

No, it was the literal opinion of a revolver guy and about 5 of his friends.  Calling that a "BS argument" is ridiculous.  Those guys would literally go back to shooting REV in USPSA if they could use an optic.  They can't see without it.

 

This isn't their argument as to why everyone should allow it---this is their comment about why THEY want it to be allowed.  If you don't think it is a valid argument for a national change to a division, that's fine. 

 

If you think that's "a BS argument", that's nonsense. 

So why aren't they shooting their optics revolver in USPSA now?

There is a division for that now.

Having revolver listed as their division isn't going to move them up in the overall results anymore than shooting open with a revolver.

There are rarely enough revolvers at most locals or majors in fact to have anyone to compare yourself to so looking at the overalls is all we have to see where we fall.

[pskys2]

22 hours ago, Bosshoss said:

So why aren't they shooting their optics revolver in USPSA now?

There is a division for that now.

Having revolver listed as their division isn't going to move them up in the overall results anymore than shooting open with a revolver.

There are rarely enough revolvers at most locals or majors in fact to have anyone to compare yourself to so looking at the overalls is all we have to see where we fall.

We usually have 4 to 5 Revolvers at our local USPSA Match, when we get excited.  Those of us rarely shoot anything else (though I have since I started in 1978).  Locally we even have tried an Revolver Category to compare IS/OS Revolvers, I was the only one with osr in open and performed miserably.

 

Our local USPSA Club hosted the Kansas Free State Level II (the USPSA Committee did a FANTASTIC JOB too) and Revolver was the 4th most popular Division, and THE Most Popular IS Division (by a good margin too) we even outpaced PCC.

But other areas?  I kind of promote the Revolver participation at the Free State and anticipate 2025 we will move into 3rd.  CO and LO will always be on top, with Optics, high capacity, minor pf and cost creating a perfect storm for the masses.

The idea though that aging eyes will benefit from optics on Revolvers and be enticed to compete in USPSA isn't a given.  Adapting to Optics isn't a pick up and be wonderful kind of thing though.  Especially if you're used to shooting IS.  If you're used to Optics, or just starting out, it's either a non-issue or you have a learning curve anyway.

 

The 2024 Free State Championship Presented by Vortex.pdf

Edited 13 hours ago by pskys2