L10 and revolver adding optic survey?

[Chillywig]

Is this adding optic options to the current L10 and I revolver divisions? Or creating an optic L10 and revolver category?

[PatJones]

Are they going to leave us anywhere where we can compete with irons?

 

What's next? Single Stack optics?

 

I'm sure this is a reaction to the numbers at handgun nats, but what do they expect when you give someone the chance to shoot their new $5000 pistol instead of their old gat. If we leave the divisions alone, some folks will start playing in their old divisions again.

 

How much do you think the Limited Optics numbers have been inflated by local CO shooters registering for the match in LO?

[Chillywig]

I'm surprised they sent out a survey without explaining what we're supposed to be voting for very well

[robchavous]

Seems a bit pointless.

[shred]

12 hours ago, PatJones said:

Are they going to leave us anywhere where we can compete with irons?

 

What's next? Single Stack optics?

 

I'm sure this is a reaction to the numbers at handgun nats, but what do they expect when you give someone the chance to shoot their new $5000 pistol instead of their old gat. If we leave the divisions alone, some folks will start playing in their old divisions again.

Or have your "locap irons" Nationals match with most of the stages at 30+ rounds...

 

[Fishbreath]

18 hours ago, Chillywig said:

Is this adding optic options to the current L10 and I revolver divisions?

 

The way the rule changes are worded, they would allow frame-mounted optics in the respective divisions, not create new divisions.

[Schutzenmeister]

15 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

The way the rule changes are worded, they would allow frame-mounted optics in the respective divisions, not create new divisions.

If that's the case, it will destroy the last remnants of iron sights in those divisions.

Edited September 5 by Schutzenmeister

[TaterHead]

Just say no.

[MHicks]

Maybe a few more Limited 10 shooters would go back to Single Stack if they alloe optics in L10.

[shred]

I think single stack with a dot would be fun as a separate thing, but would it be my 'forever division"? no.

 

[Chillywig]

2 hours ago, shred said:

I think single stack with a dot would be fun as a separate thing, but would it be my 'forever division"? no.

 

Gotta ask - What is the "forever division"? 

 

I wanna shoot revo dot in uspsa and not be in open

 

But I have lots of guns to shoot in lots of division. I like open. Having to shoot open with 8 shot revo would make open suck. Especially looking at the scores after the fact. All it says is open. With "open" revo I'd be in "last" place 

Edited September 6 by Chillywig

[PatJones]

On 9/5/2024 at 9:41 PM, Chillywig said:

Gotta ask - What is the "forever division"? 

 

I wanna shoot revo dot in uspsa and not be in open

 

But I have lots of guns to shoot in lots of division. I like open. Having to shoot open with 8 shot revo would make open suck. Especially looking at the scores after the fact. All it says is open. With "open" revo I'd be in "last" place 

I want to shoot a revolver with iron sights. I'm not a tourist, It's my primary division. When you allow a dot, it basically requires one.

 

I was in support of opening revolver up to the 8 shot guns because that's what I was shooting in ICORE, but I was wrong. I wanted it to say "Revolver" next to my name in the results instead of L10.

 

Now I have fewer people to race against locally. The rule change drove several people to give up on the revolver completely. I suspect allowing dots may have similar results. I suspect that I would spend more time shooting single stack than I do now. I assume I'm not alone in this. I believe allowing dots in revolver would drive away more activity than it would attract, just like the 8 round change. 

 

As to L10. We had a 10 round dot division and it didn't attract much interest until we removed the capacity restrictions. Why do we want to do this again? Is this the solution to single stacks with dots?

 

 

[warpspeed]

On 9/4/2024 at 6:44 PM, Chillywig said:

I'm surprised they sent out a survey without explaining what we're supposed to be voting for very well

 

Every single survey from the USPSA has been exactly like this ; performative. They already have an idea of what they want to do and go through the motions to make it appear as if they care what the membership thinks.

[MHicks]

For single  stack shooters if they allow the optic in L10 they can shoot that division with 10 round mags and an optic or Single Stack with 8 major/ 10 minor. Whichever they like more.

[MikeBurgess]

On 9/5/2024 at 8:41 PM, Chillywig said:

Gotta ask - What is the "forever division"? 

 

I wanna shoot revo dot in uspsa and not be in open

 

But I have lots of guns to shoot in lots of division. I like open. Having to shoot open with 8 shot revo would make open suck. Especially looking at the scores after the fact. All it says is open. With "open" revo I'd be in "last" place 

What's the difference between first and last place revo with dot division or last place open division?

 

In both cases you are just looking at the overall results to see how you did, it's literally the same thing.

 

 

 

[Chillywig]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

What's the difference between first and last place revo with dot division or last place open division?

 

Maybe saving face is what would make me hesitate to shoot revo in open. I am not the fastest guy but normally finish closer to the top than the bottom at local matches. If someone didn't know I brought the 627 vs open gun reviewing the scores would just think I had a terrible day. Not that it really matters but....

[MikeyScuba]

I’ve thought about that too.  But since I don’t shoot much IPSC it’s a moot point.  Besides sometimes one needs the sound and fury of 9.5gr of powder going boom.

[MikeBurgess]

21 hours ago, Chillywig said:

Maybe saving face is what would make me hesitate to shoot revo in open. I am not the fastest guy but normally finish closer to the top than the bottom at local matches. If someone didn't know I brought the 627 vs open gun reviewing the scores would just think I had a terrible day. Not that it really matters but....

Actually I think this reply is the perfect proponent for my idea for how to deal with the low participation divisions.

 

Here is my solution for Revo Single Stack L10 (locally also Production and Limited) make the low participation divisions a Class like Senior or Lady, so for the Revo with optic example you would enter Open division with the add on of Revolver class along with any other classes you qualify for. This way if someone (or you looking back years later) sees your results you could see that ok I was 60% in Open but first (and only?) doing it with a revo

[Schutzenmeister]

Great boogly-woogly!  Sounds a lot like what we used to do 30+ years ago!!!

[Thomas H]

Interesting that people are having problem figuring out what the survey meant---I didn't have any problem with it.  The words were pretty clear...

 

Something that hadn't occurred to me, but was told to me by an ardent ICORE shooter at a later point in time was that he WANTED optics to be added to REV in USPSA, and he knew a bunch of other revolver shooters who would also, simply because their eyes weren't what they used to be, so all of their revos now had dots on them---but that meant they could only shoot in ICORE and Steel Challenge.  This would give them a chance to do USPSA again.

 

I don't know how prevalent that attitude is, but he knew 5 or 6 other revo shooters just in his area that would start shooting REV in USPSA again if they could use their dot guns.

 

I don't happen to shoot revo in USPSA, because it isn't fun for me (though I thoroughly enjoy it in SC, ICORE, and IDPA), so the decision doesn't make much difference to me (and therefore probably really shouldn't be up to me).

 

Given what participation in REV looks like right now in USPSA, while I agree that adding dots means that the dots ARE going to have an advantage, I'm thinking that it still might be worth it to add them.  People who shoot it a lot might think differently.

 

[pskys2]

On 9/13/2024 at 12:52 PM, Thomas H said:

Interesting that people are having problem figuring out what the survey meant---I didn't have any problem with it.  The words were pretty clear...

 

Something that hadn't occurred to me, but was told to me by an ardent ICORE shooter at a later point in time was that he WANTED optics to be added to REV in USPSA, and he knew a bunch of other revolver shooters who would also, simply because their eyes weren't what they used to be, so all of their revos now had dots on them---but that meant they could only shoot in ICORE and Steel Challenge.  This would give them a chance to do USPSA again.

 

I don't know how prevalent that attitude is, but he knew 5 or 6 other revo shooters just in his area that would start shooting REV in USPSA again if they could use their dot guns.

 

I don't happen to shoot revo in USPSA, because it isn't fun for me (though I thoroughly enjoy it in SC, ICORE, and IDPA), so the decision doesn't make much difference to me (and therefore probably really shouldn't be up to me).

 

Given what participation in REV looks like right now in USPSA, while I agree that adding dots means that the dots ARE going to have an advantage, I'm thinking that it still might be worth it to add them.  People who shoot it a lot might think differently.

 

In all honesty I don't see huge numbers of OSR vs ISR in SC?  At the A3 SC Champs we had 9 ISR & 6 OSR, 3 OSR also shot ISR so there were 3 OSR only.  My old eyes need help, but I had my lenses cut for the FS distance and don't feel it's a burden.  

 

Edited September 15 by pskys2

[392heminut]

11 hours ago, pskys2 said:

In all honesty I don't see huge numbers of OSR vs ISR in SC?  At the A3 SC Champs we had 9 ISR & 6 OSR, 3 OSR also shot ISR so there were 3 OSR only.  My old eyes need help, but I had my lenses cut for the FS distance and don't feel it's a burden.  

 

And this post right here gets the annual award for the most prolific use of acronyms!

[Bosshoss]

On 9/13/2024 at 1:52 PM, Thomas H said:

Something that hadn't occurred to me, but was told to me by an ardent ICORE shooter at a later point in time was that he WANTED optics to be added to REV in USPSA, and he knew a bunch of other revolver shooters who would also, simply because their eyes weren't what they used to be, so all of their revos now had dots on them---but that meant they could only shoot in ICORE and Steel Challenge.  This would give them a chance to do USPSA again.

That is the same BS argument that was used when they were discussing the 8 shot rule and it didn't bring out the ICORE shooters. Most of the people shooting USPSA in revolver division are shooting revolvers because they want to, not because they have a ICORE gun laying around and it is another chance to use it.

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, 392heminut said:

And this post right here gets the annual award for the most prolific use of acronyms!

Fwiw Omg finally my ocd in BS is acknowledged btw

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, Bosshoss said:

That is the same BS argument that was used when they were discussing the 8 shot rule and it didn't bring out the ICORE shooters. Most of the people shooting USPSA in revolver division are shooting revolvers because they want to, not because they have a ICORE gun laying around and it is another chance to use it.

I tend to agree, but i do like my 627?