1.1.5 as it pertains to an "unbalanced shooting bridge"

[ColoradoNick]

1.1.5 "...Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance..."

 

My club has an unbalanced shooting bridge that has fault lines on it effectively making it a shooting box. I'm designing a 24 round long course using this bridge to "connect" two large shooting areas. There will be two paper targets and two steel targets only visible from this bridge. In an effort to prevent gaming the bridge by planting one foot on stable ground it will be spread out enough that it is it's own shooting area. Is this considered "dictating a shooting area?" 

Edited May 7 by ColoradoNick

[CHA-LEE]

What you described doesn't fit into the restrictions defined in 1.1.5. The intent of 1.1.5 is that you can't MANDATE via WSB verbiage exactly how you want competitors to do things within a Field course. A basic example of this is Mandating that shooters MUST have both feet touching the ground while they engage XYZ targets. You can't legally mandate that per rule 1.1.5.

 

You can use location of Props and shooting areas to force competitors to do certain things because they can't engage the targets otherwise. But the competitor should have the choice in how they solve that puzzle.

Edited May 7 by CHA-LEE

[ColoradoNick]

Thanks Charlie. That makes much more sense. 

[broadside72]

Disconnected shooting areas are allowed. It may be worth indicating in the WSB that the bridge platform has fault lines defined. Also be sure that the WSB says to shoot things from the thing shooting area, otherwise I am going to skip the bridge all together. 

[waktasz]

That rule just means you can't lay out a sea of targets, then tell people to shoot these ones from Box A and these ones from Box B, etc. 
If you build a stage where you can only see some targets from some locations, it's fine, as long as the other rules are met. ie can't have more than 8 shots required from a position/view, etc. 

[rtkwe]

On 5/7/2024 at 12:15 PM, broadside72 said:

Disconnected shooting areas are allowed. It may be worth indicating in the WSB that the bridge platform has fault lines defined. Also be sure that the WSB says to shoot things from the thing shooting area, otherwise I am going to skip the bridge all together. 

There are 4 (2 paper 2 steel) targets only visible from the bridge according to OP so you'd be eating 4 FTSAs and 6 misses to do that which would bring you pretty close to zeroing out the entire stage on penalty points alone!

[Joe4d]

at beginning of bridge put up 2 snow fence barriers,, blocking target views , like wings sticking out perpendicular ,,,  then put your targets at about 178 degrees from the down range end of the bridge.,,,  Pretty much make it so bridge surface is only place to engage said targets,,,  no fault lines needed.  no seperate shooting areas,,, 

[ColoradoNick]

Stage went very well thank you guys for input. This was generally the stage with some added barrels to hide the back corner targets.

[broadside72]

3 hours ago, rtkwe said:

There are 4 (2 paper 2 steel) targets only visible from the bridge according to OP so you'd be eating 4 FTSAs and 6 misses to do that which would bring you pretty close to zeroing out the entire stage on penalty points alone!

 

He did not say that the targets are only visible from on the bridge itself. They may be visible from the ground in front of the bridge, hence my comment about being sure to indicate in the WSB to specify shooting from the shooting area only. 

[ColoradoNick]

12 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

He did not say that the targets are only visible from on the bridge itself. They may be visible from the ground in front of the bridge, hence my comment about being sure to indicate in the WSB to specify shooting from the shooting area only. 

 “there will be two paper targets and two steel targets only visible from the bridge”. If you shoot it from in front of the bridge you’re way outside of the shooting area I’m not a fan of dictating who shoots what targets from where… it’s freestyle. 

Edited May 14 by ColoradoNick

[CHA-LEE]

The Wobbly Bridge discussion at every match I have attended usually goes like this.....

 

"This Wobbly Bridge is super unstable and dangerous!!!"

 

"BEND YOUR KNEES while standing on the wobbly bridge to gain stability"

 

"WOW bending my knees does make it feel much more stable"

 

Repeat 98234520894328 times through the match.

[ColoradoNick]

1 minute ago, CHA-LEE said:

The Wobbly Bridge discussion at every match I have attended usually goes like this.....

 

"This Wobbly Bridge is super unstable and dangerous!!!"

 

"BEND YOUR KNEES while standing on the wobbly bridge to gain stability"

 

"WOW bending my knees does make it feel much more stable"

 

Repeat 98234520894328 times through the match.

I thought you were gonna put a sign on it saying “bend your knees”  at one point. 

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, ColoradoNick said:

 you’re way outside of the shooting area

But that only matters if the WSB says to shoot things from that thing shooting area. And yes I see that your WSB indicates so. 

 

Of course the RM is likely going to complain about consistency and force a reshoot if someone does shoot from outside when the WSB doesn't require it if everyone else has been coloring within the lines. 

 

"gamers gonna game"

Edited May 14 by broadside72

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

But that only matters if the WSB says to shoot things from that thing shooting area. And yes I see that your WSB indicates so. 

 

Of course the RM is likely going to complain about consistency and force a reshoot if someone does shoot from outside when the WSB doesn't require it if everyone else has been coloring within the lines. 

 

"gamers gonna game"

You might want to look at 10.2.1 before you actually try that. 

[broadside72]

3 hours ago, DKorn said:

You might want to look at 10.2.1 before you actually try that. 

Not based on what is taught at RO class, or even presented here 

 

[Schutzenmeister]

5 hours ago, broadside72 said:

But that only matters if the WSB says to shoot things from that thing shooting area. [...]

 

This is why I honestly prefer IPSC Rules on this particular issue.  Fault lines exist for a reason.  You want to shoot outside them?  Go ahead.  Just apply the appropriate penalties for your actions.

 

It always amazes me that we here in the US have to be TOLD to shoot from within the shooting area!

[ColoradoNick]

9 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

This is why I honestly prefer IPSC Rules on this particular issue.  Fault lines exist for a reason.  You want to shoot outside them?  Go ahead.  Just apply the appropriate penalties for your actions.

 

It always amazes me that we here in the US have to be TOLD to shoot from within the shooting area!

I agree it shouldn’t be a thing. I could see wording regarding clearly defining the shooting area but not having to dictate that you shoot from it, that should be common sense. It’s such commonplace to have it in the stage procedure of the WSB though it’s kind of a non-issue.

[broadside72]

16 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

This is why I honestly prefer IPSC Rules on this particular issue.  Fault lines exist for a reason.  You want to shoot outside them?  Go ahead.  Just apply the appropriate penalties for your actions.

 

It always amazes me that we here in the US have to be TOLD to shoot from within the shooting area!

Yeah, it's called a "shooting area" for a reason. I am not sure I like the IPSC no leaving the area part of their rules, but it should be automatic that you shoot from the shooting area. But until that is the rule, I will game it when beneficial. 

[Joe4d]

i dunno,, thats a box inside a shooting area and you are violating freestyle principles.. and basic as and when visible.  How can you have a fault line for this target but not another one ? If I can shoot target A while standing at a point,, and I can see and engage target B from the same point, how on earth are you going to give me a foot fault penalty ? 

[barry]

From the diagram it looks like 3 separate shooting areas but I also know  arguing about a stage design based on a 1 dimensional drawing is a waste of time.

[Sarge]

12 hours ago, Joe4d said:

i dunno,, thats a box inside a shooting area and you are violating freestyle principles.. and basic as and when visible.  How can you have a fault line for this target but not another one ? If I can shoot target A while standing at a point,, and I can see and engage target B from the same point, how on earth are you going to give me a foot fault penalty ? 

There are 3 shooting areas, not a box within a shooting area.

[ChuckS]

On 5/14/2024 at 5:07 PM, Schutzenmeister said:

--- snip ---

It always amazes me that we here in the US have to be TOLD to shoot from within the shooting area!

Odds are that sometime in the distant past, someone arb'ed a foot fault and won at a major match. The rule book stated at 4 pages and then people did stuff and we have what we have now  

[Schutzenmeister]

23 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Yeah, it's called a "shooting area" for a reason. I am not sure I like the IPSC no leaving the area part of their rules, but it should be automatic that you shoot from the shooting area. But until that is the rule, I will game it when beneficial. 

 

I would proffer those rules ALREADY exist. To wit:

 

2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines.

 

The remainder of 2.2.1.x goes on to describe "Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines" and "shooting area" etc.  Hence, by rule, everyone is on notice of what those are, their intent, and what they look like.  If folks don't bother to read or understand the rules, that's not our problem.

 

10.2.1  [I won't quote it here ... It's too lengthy and we ALL know what is says!] prescribes the penalties for shooting while on the wrong side of such fault lines.

 

Hence, in my opinion, the rule(s) you request already exist and render the approach of "But that only matters if the WSB says to shoot things from that thing shooting area ..." moot.

 

2 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Odds are that sometime in the distant past, someone arb'ed a foot fault and won at a major match. The rule book stated at 4 pages and then people did stuff and we have what we have now  

 

I would LIKE to say you're wrong, but unfortunately I believe you're 100% correct.

 

Two things:

 

- We need to stop giving credence to the multitude of DRLs who try to manipulate the rules to fit their personal predilections and twisted interpretations.  This has led us to insane logics such as the "electric conductivity concepts" with respect to shooting areas; an attempt to DQ a 1911 shooter who - when the loaded start was mag inserted, chamber empty (which by rule requires the hammer to be down) because his safety wasn't applied when he holstered the gun (a physical impossibility and something that NO ONE in their right mind EVER questioned in the history of the sport); and a few other items that resulted in contorted rewrites of rules that should never have been necessary.

 

- The questionable notion that an arbitration ruling in one match - even a "major" match - somehow is precedent setting and becomes "settled law" on other matches.  Nothing in Chapter 11 ... let me emphasize - NOTHING ... conveys that level of authority of an arbitration in one match carrying over into any other match(es).

 

This is a sport and a game.  We need to stop pretending it's a court of law and parsing every rule for unintended and often idiotic interpretations.  ROs need to remember how to say no, and RMs need to enforce the call.  Arb committees need to stop coddling nonsense requests for relief.

 

Sorry ... [RANT Mode: Off]

 

 

[barry]

Well said.

No means no

[waktasz]

A youtube video starring Troy doesn't have any authority at any matches either, and neither does a post on their blog. They have said so themselves.