motosapiens Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 49 minutes ago, MHicks said: I just don't think current CO shooters would be happy if they restricted them to 15 rounds at this point in order to differentiate CO from LO. i don’t know whether ill go co or lo as my eyes age, but id be cool with my shadow2 being bumped into lo for weight. id also be cool with shooting it in co with no magwell and 15 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, Rich406 said: LEO participation in uspsa is minimal at best. i never said otherwise. my point was about the origin of the sport being in practical shooting, not video games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: i never said otherwise. my point was about the origin of the sport being in practical shooting, not video games. You implied that what LEOs shoot somehow is relevant to USPSA, it’s not. Edited January 31 by Rich406 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 18 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: The whole point of having major power factor relates back to defensive rounds. People here seem to think that because nobody carries 40s or 45s any more, we should move everything to minor pf. In reality, most defensive 9mm rounds are well above 125 pf and many are actually closer to 165 than 125. Also, part of the game was learning how to manage recoil, which is a non-issue with minor pf. At least for anyone with a moderate amount of training and experience. If people want to do away with that, whatever. But, it's kinda like Ironman saying we're not going to have a swim segment because some people don't like it. Higher power factor 9mm isn’t a terrible idea, but really it opens a totally different can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 42 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: Every CO gun is LO compliant. Plus you get to add a magwell and a thumb rest and even a racker if you want. Going to 15 in CO will not alter match participation to any measurable degree. True. It might just change the balance of participation in CO vs LO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 42 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: Every CO gun is LO compliant. Plus you get to add a magwell and a thumb rest and even a racker if you want. Going to 15 in CO will not alter match participation to any measurable degree. True. It might just change the balance of participation in CO vs LO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 30 minutes ago, motosapiens said: this is literally the wrongest thing that has ever been posted in this forum. LEOs invented uspsa as a practical sport to increase practical skills. It was more a spin-off of the military via Jeff Cooper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 24 minutes ago, Rich406 said: Higher power factor 9mm isn’t a terrible idea, but really it opens a totally different can of worms. It's a horrible idea. Quite a bit of factory ammo is already iffy PF-wise. Increasing minor will make an already not-great ammo situation a lot worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 2 minutes ago, deerslayer said: It's a horrible idea. Quite a bit of factory ammo is already iffy PF-wise. Increasing minor will make an already not-great ammo situation a lot worse. Just like everything else change related, opinions range all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, ltdmstr said: Maybe, but 125 pf isn't what people shoot outside of competition. And most of the 9mm LEO and self defense rounds are closer to major than minor. The 125 pf is just an easy button for the low buy-in, lack of effort crowd. Next up will be participation awards. My carry ammo (Hornady Critical Defense) advertises 1135 fps, which is 130.5 PF. I haven't choreographed it, but from my experience, advertised velocity is often optimistic. My LO ammo is 132 PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, Rich406 said: Just like everything else change related, opinions range all over the place. It's not an opinion - if minor PF is increased, there will be fewer factory ammo options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, deerslayer said: My carry ammo (Hornady Critical Defense) advertises 1135 fps, which is 130.5 PF. I haven't choreographed it, but from my experience, advertised velocity is often optimistic. My LO ammo is 132 PF. OMG only 130PF?? How do you expect to defend yourself with piddly 130pf ammo?? What would Jeff cooper say about this?? *this is extreme sarcasm* for those that won’t get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 5 minutes ago, Rich406 said: OMG only 130PF?? How do you expect to defend yourself with piddly 130pf ammo?? What would Jeff cooper say about this?? *this is extreme sarcasm* for those that won’t get it. Well in one of his books I read, he said something to the effect that pistols suck for manstopping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mitch Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Major power factor is the best power factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 14 minutes ago, deerslayer said: It's a horrible idea. Quite a bit of factory ammo is already iffy PF-wise. Increasing minor will make an already not-great ammo situation a lot worse. Let me clarify. What I was getting at was the idea of a major pf using 9mm. .40 major isn’t gonna happen in LO, no matter how much the die hards want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 9 minutes ago, deerslayer said: Well in one of his books I read, he said something to the effect that pistols suck for manstopping. Well, he wouldn't be wrong there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Rich406 said: You implied that what LEOs shoot somehow is relevant to USPSA, it’s not. i disagree with you 100%. what people (leos and civilians) actually shoot defensively is what the sport is based on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, ltdmstr said: because nobody carries 40s or 45s any more, we should move everything to minor pf. In reality, most defensive 9mm rounds are well above 125 pf and many are actually closer to 165 than 125. Also, part of the game was learning how to manage recoil, which is a non-issue with minor pf. At least for anyone with a moderate amount of training and experience. If people want to do away with that, whatever. But, it's kinda like Ironman saying we're not going to have a swim segment because some people don't like it. I and some others pitched an idea of having an intermediate PF. Say a floor of 150-155. Close to self defense ammo as you are correct, 9mm self ammo is no where near 125 PF. I think it would add an interesting wrinkle to the game. Something different than CO, Limited, and Open. But, alas people wanted nothing to do with that idea. A PF of 150 would also be a lot easier on guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 30 minutes ago, deerslayer said: My carry ammo (Hornady Critical Defense) advertises 1135 fps, which is 130.5 PF. I haven't choreographed it, but from my experience, advertised velocity is often optimistic. My LO ammo is 132 PF. my former agency’s duty ammo (winchester ranger 147) made 177 from a pcc. i didn’t test it from a pistol but all the other rounds i tested in both showed a 10-15% difference, so i would expect well over 150. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 36 minutes ago, motosapiens said: my former agency’s duty ammo (winchester ranger 147) made 177 from a pcc. i didn’t test it from a pistol but all the other rounds i tested in both showed a 10-15% difference, so i would expect well over 150. I don’t doubt it, but that was probably red hot +P or +P+, not average hollow point ammo commonly found. Edited January 31 by deerslayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 48 minutes ago, RJH said: Well, he wouldn't be wrong there Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David.Hylton Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 LO should be limited optics - limited with an optic. If it is legal in limited it should be legal in LO. This includes major PF. CO should be production optics. All of the same rules apply, but add an optic. Mostly I wish we'd stop subdividing existing divisions or adding new divisions a different widget comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Wow, if only there could have been a vote done by the organization where the membership had a say in what this division was going to be and, the people actually shooting the guns helped to decide what the division would look like instead of something being handed down from above. And then maybe there would be a second vote just to reaffirm the first. Maybe if something like that happened all of these eight or so guys on Enos wouldn't have to worry about limited optics major all the time. Oh, wait....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Yes We should hold votes on every rule change ,devision,advertising choice,range to hlod area matches,nationals, logo change. Maybe then we could hold a match or 2 if time permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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