RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 20 minutes ago, barry said: Yes We should hold votes on every rule change ,devision,advertising choice,range to hlod area matches,nationals, logo change. Maybe then we could hold a match or 2 if time permits. You know this does sound a little sour grape-ish LOL If somebody couldn't be bothered to vote in one of two poles, I'm not sure I care what they think now. Anybody that wants to strap a new division to a dying caliber, that has to be reloaded to be anywhere approaching affordable, and basically requires a custom gun should have their head examined. New divisions should look to the Future. Cheap available off-the-shelf ammo that doesn't have to be reloaded, relatively cheap highly available production guns and a semi-production guns, and you can even get you a full custom if you want but definitely not required. And all that with no changes to how the game is scored or played (I mean I get you have to aim harder so that could be changing the way the game is played a little bit, but we're not going to start ringing steel and it counts like if we went to rimfire. I'm just trying to cut off that stupid discussion before it even starts) And even putting the emphasis on accuracy, where it always should have been when pertaining to pistol shooting is a good thing. But I get it, voting is hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Also, who's the 3 goobs saying to get rid of the division? In less than a year it's the what, fourth most popular division maybe third? And only growing. Why would you get rid of that other than be ing offended, which is pretty comical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 26 minutes ago, barry said: Yes We should hold votes on every rule change ,devision,advertising choice,range to hlod area matches,nationals, logo change. Maybe then we could hold a match or 2 if time permits. We don't need to vote on every detail of the org. But if the AD's are going to make the calls they need to be talking to members and survey's are a easy way to reach a lot of members at once. Maybe form committees for things and let people know how to contact those on the committee. Any form of transparency in the process would be a step in the right direction. Propose changes and allow comment periods like they did with Prod15 vs just dropping it on us like they did with flashlights, magnets, holster locations, "small parts" in production, weight limits, revo capacity, PCC, CO, and what ever else they've changed in the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Might even work ... Oh wait. When the membership does have the chance to vote, THEY DON'T! Democracy at its finest ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, Schutzenmeister said: Might even work ... Oh wait. When the membership does have the chance to vote, THEY DON'T! Democracy at its finest ... And whose fault is that LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, RJH said: And whose fault is that LOL As Lucy once said: If you don't vote, don't crab. I vote. Therefore I reserve the right to crab! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said: Might even work ... Oh wait. When the membership does have the chance to vote, THEY DON'T! Democracy at its finest ... A bigger problem is when you do and the BOD just ignores you. Sort of like how the SC's in Area 3 got together and found someone to recommend to replace the A3D that was removed. The BOD said no, we'll do our own thing. That's lame. But, yeah if people don't care enough to keep up with what's going on and talk to their AD's they shouldn't be surprised when things don't go the way they like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Trust me ... The A3 situation is, unfortunately, still in limbo. For better or worse ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 One of the main reasons I come here is to see Moto refer to people as "poofs." Legit makes me laugh out loud. People seem to get very anti-major for some reason. "I only want what I want." LO should provide an option for shooting major. Choices. Action:reaction. Pro/con. If minor in LO is "the way" then surely the match results will support that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 9 minutes ago, konkapot said: One of the main reasons I come here is to see Moto refer to people as "poofs." Legit makes me laugh out loud. People seem to get very anti-major for some reason. "I only want what I want." LO should provide an option for shooting major. Choices. Action:reaction. Pro/con. If minor in LO is "the way" then surely the match results will support that. Maybe you're right, maybe they should allowed nine major and 38 super to make major in limited optics. I could be for that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, RJH said: Anybody that wants to strap a new division to a dying caliber, that has to be reloaded to be anywhere approaching affordable, and basically requires a custom gun should have their head examined. New divisions should look to the Future. Cheap available off-the-shelf ammo that doesn't have to be reloaded, relatively cheap highly available production guns and a semi-production guns. . . . Yep. Let's just dumb it down so everyone has to play by rules designed to attract those who are the least committed to the sport. That's a great plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 11 minutes ago, konkapot said: One of the main reasons I come here is to see Moto refer to people as "poofs." Legit makes me laugh out loud. People seem to get very anti-major for some reason. "I only want what I want." LO should provide an option for shooting major. Choices. Action:reaction. Pro/con. If minor in LO is "the way" then surely the match results will support that. Personally I think all dev. Should be major /minor and let the chips fall where they may. Some divisions like single stack it makes for an interesting choice. Worrying about the casual shooter that doesn't reload wanting everything minor so they get the illusion of being competitive is just degrading the sport and pitting 2 factions of shooters against each other. Let the new minor only games play out and see what happens. If they take away enough shooters then make the changes. If the politics at the top really bother you vot them out,if it doesn't work out to your liking vote with your feet. If ya just want to shoot in blissful ignorance of politics do so. It's just like real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 6 minutes ago, barry said: Personally I think all dev. Should be major /minor and let the chips fall where they may. Some divisions like single stack it makes for an interesting choice. Worrying about the casual shooter that doesn't reload wanting everything minor so they get the illusion of being competitive is just degrading the sport and pitting 2 factions of shooters against each other. Let the new minor only games play out and see what happens. If they take away enough shooters then make the changes. If the politics at the top really bother you vot them out,if it doesn't work out to your liking vote with your feet. If ya just want to shoot in blissful ignorance of politics do so. It's just like real life. The minor only games in USPSA is carryouts division and limited optics division, and those seem to be working pretty good The major divisions like limited and single stack however seem to be dying. Opens doing okay, but open is open, so there's that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Yep. Let's just dumb it down so everyone has to play by rules designed to attract those who are the least committed to the sport. That's a great plan. Are you saying carryops guys are the least committed to the sport? Because they seem to be the hugest division there is and it is minor only. If anything they're more committed than all the limited guys that are bitching, yet consistently not shooting their 40 major limited guns. Hell, Ironsight Nationals with all of their major caliber divisions couldn't even fill up and limited optics which was about 5 or so months old at the time ended up being the biggest division at that match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, RJH said: Are you saying carryops guys are the least committed to the sport? Because they seem to be the hugest division there is and it is minor only. If anything they're more committed than all the limited guys that are bitching, yet consistently not shooting their 40 major limited guns. Hell, Ironsight Nationals with all of their major caliber divisions couldn't even fill up and limited optics which was about 5 or so months old at the time ended up being the biggest division at that match. I'm referring to your comment that new divisions should be geared toward cheap off the shelf ammo and cheap highly available production guns. That's not what most CO shooters are running these days. At least not in these parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Don't forget production. Which I think should have been major /minor . Most likely would be dominated by 9mm at local level but would be interesting at upper level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: I'm referring to your comment that new divisions should be geared toward cheap off the shelf ammo and cheap highly available production guns. That's not what most CO shooters are running these days. At least not in these parts. Yes, but wouldn't you agree that making a division based around a caliber that nobody shoots and is a reload only round would be foolish? I wasn't there back when the first limited division was created, but I have a firm belief that the reason that 40 was made the minimum for major was because 38 super was a basically dead and reload only option, when 40 could be had off the shelf and was easily available. I think they were smart enough then to go, "if we make this based around 38 super, everybody will be tied to that forever and it's just a big pain in the ass, but forty is great because it's everywhere." And there were plenty of non-comp 38 super guns that could make major and didn't blow up. So saying 38 super making major is hard on a gun would be disingenuous Now 20 some odd years later 40 is the dying caliber that 38 super was and 9 mm is everywhere. So let's use the same common sense that they used way back when and know that it's time to move on from 40. Also, if you don't want guns that are based around cheap off the shelf ammo, open is always a possibility Edited January 31 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 4 minutes ago, barry said: Don't forget production. Which I think should have been major /minor . Most likely would be dominated by 9mm at local level but would be interesting at upper level. If when production was originally made it was a major/minor division, major would have dominated it at locals just like it dominated limited. There wouldn't even be the irrelevant difference in capacity that there is in limited guns. The only thing that might have changed is people might have shot 45 instead of 40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 One other solid reason to make any new division 9 mm is the erratic ammunition availability we seem to have been having the past few years. I mean it's gotten better now but 9 mil is by far the easiest to find ammo In fact up until a few years ago I didn't even own a 9 mm and had went to 40 only. Then all of a sudden you couldn't get ammo or components and so even reloading 40 was not a possibility. But there was 9 mm on the shelf. So what did I do? I went out and bought the first 9 mm I'd had in a long time. So there's another good reason not to tie a new division to a dying caliber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 14 minutes ago, RJH said: Yes, but wouldn't you agree that making a division based around a caliber that nobody shoots and is a reload only round would be foolish? I wasn't there back when the first limited division was created, but I have a firm belief that the reason that 40 was made the minimum for major was because 38 super was a basically dead and reload only option, when 40 could be had off the shelf and was easily available. I think they were smart enough then to go, "if we make this based around 38 super, everybody will be tied to that forever and it's just a big pain in the ass, but forty is great because it's everywhere." And there were plenty of non-comp 38 super guns that could make major and didn't blow up. So saying 38 super making major is hard on a gun would be disingenuous Now 20 some odd years later 40 is the dying caliber that 38 super was and 9 mm is everywhere. So let's use the same common sense that they used way back when and know that it's time to move on from 40. They did the .40 min for major mainly because they knew if they didn't people would load 9 major for their Limited guns, which they thought would be a safety issue. As for .40 being a dying caliber, I think that's overstating things a bit. There's still a LOT of brass out there for relatively cheap, and although it's not nearly as popular for a carry round, it's still in use and commercial ammo is still available. It's not anywhere close to .38S situation. Just seems there are plenty of divisions to shoot minor pf already, so some of us just don't see the point of adding more. Like I posted above, CO and LO are essentially the same thing, except for SA in LO, which is no real advantage. So, what's the point of having two separate divisions? Haven't seen a legit argument for that yet. Edited January 31 by ltdmstr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, ltdmstr said: They did the .40 min for major mainly because they knew if they didn't people would loading 9 major for their Limited guns, which they thought would be a safety issue. As for .40 being a dying caliber, I think that's overstating things a bit. There's still a LOT of brass out there for relatively cheap, and although it's not nearly as popular for a carry round, it's still in use and commercial ammo is still available. It's not anywhere close to .38S situation. Just seems there are plenty of divisions to shoot already, so some of us just don't see the point of adding more. Like I posted above, CO and LO are essentially the same thing, except for SA in LO, which is no real advantage. So, what's the point of having two separate divisions? Haven't seen a legit argument for that yet. Moto has the best argument for that, in that 2011's would still dominate. I do agree with you though that if it would have been up to me it would have just been all rolled together from the get-go. Just to touch back though on the nine major in limited guns, that's not really a realistic argument. Because for a while nine major wasn't even allowed in open guns, but 38 super always was. I still believe that the reason they went with 40 was because 38 super is a dead caliber, kind of like 40 is now, and they didn't want to straddle a brand new division with a caliber that nobody shot. Especially when you add in the old limited rules of the guns had to be somewhat production-ishq, at least in there sales numbers When you start looking at the sales numbers for 40 versus 9 or even 45 it's kind of crazy how little it sells, especially from where it was a few years ago. And none of that even takes into how you can't even find 40 when there's a little bit of a run on ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb06 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 The idea that everything should be bare bones basic and off the shelf available (ammo, gun, mag, holster) is a fantasy. The person who comes to their very first match will most likely have off the shelf basic gear but after that one event, there is absolutely nothing stock or what some want to refer to as off the shelf. Everything we use is made and designed to supposedly give us an edge in some form or another including reloading. Some say .40 is an dying caliber for what it was originally designed for as a defensive round and LEO issued caliber which is true. Who cares if it is dying defensive round and LEO issued caliber we are participating in a game, and to some the option to use something not off the shelf and different is what may have drawn them to that division, not everyone is into cookie cutter division with little difference between them. If you don't think the division needs major that's your opinion and good that you gave it. Just do not lecture others on how they are wrong or dumb wanting to stay with something they have invested time and money in just because you don't like it. Most limited shooters are now facing decision on what do with their custom limited guns? Current major limited guns have lost there resale value so selling to fund something else is not ideal. Buy new slide, barrel, and plate and have it fit to current frame. Cost to do this if having to pay someone is 1/3-1/2 cost new gun depending on manufacture, still cheaper than new but..... Machine slide or add plate and optic to a .40 major gun and load to minor. Again added cost to a gun. Buy new gun $4,000-$6,000 just to shoot minor. Screw what the new Kool Aid is and continue to shoot Limited as is knowing very few people will continue with it. Someone's choice to invest into limited guns and equipment was because the division appealed to them. When USPSA first announced LO it sounded like a great idea take you limited gun add an optic if you want and boom good to go. We didn't think USPSA would make LO a minor only division it should be Limited optics, everything the same as limited but added optic to cater to the new trend, rage, Kool Aid, what ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 56 minutes ago, RJH said: The minor only games in USPSA is carryouts division and limited optics division, and those seem to be working pretty good The major divisions like limited and single stack however seem to be dying. Opens doing okay, but open is open, so there's that 16 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: They did the .40 min for major mainly because they knew if they didn't people would load 9 major for their Limited guns, which they thought would be a safety issue. As for .40 being a dying caliber, I think that's overstating things a bit. There's still a LOT of brass out there for relatively cheap, and although it's not nearly as popular for a carry round, it's still in use and commercial ammo is still available. It's not anywhere close to .38S situation. Just seems there are plenty of divisions to shoot minor pf already, so some of us just don't see the point of adding more. Like I posted above, CO and LO are essentially the same thing, except for SA in LO, which is no real advantage. So, what's the point of having two separate divisions? Haven't seen a legit argument for that yet. I belive they did 40 as major because it was by far the most popular self defense and Leo round on the market.and power factor was higher and the most popular 9mm guns on the market couldn't be loaded to major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: The idea that everything should be bare bones basic and off the shelf available (ammo, gun, mag, holster) is a fantasy. The person who comes to their very first match will most likely have off the shelf basic gear but after that one event, there is absolutely nothing stock or what some want to refer to as off the shelf. Everything we use is made and designed to supposedly give us an edge in some form or another including reloading. I don't think anybody is saying that. 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: Some say .40 is an dying caliber for what it was originally designed for as a defensive round and LEO issued caliber which is true. Who cares if it is dying defensive round and LEO issued caliber we are participating in a game, and to some the option to use something not off the shelf and different is what may have drawn them to that division, not everyone is into cookie cutter division with little difference between them. If you don't think the division needs major that's your opinion and good that you gave it. Just do not lecture others on how they are wrong or dumb wanting to stay with something they have invested time and money in just because you don't like it. It will matter it will matter in a few years when brass and s*** is really hard to find, just like it is for 38 super now. But, it will be even worse than 38 super because you won't be able to shoot nine major like they can in open to avoid the hassle of loading 38 super 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: Most limited shooters are now facing decision on what do with their custom limited guns? Current major limited guns have lost there resale value so selling to fund something else is not ideal. This happens with everything, and time moves on. This point in itself proves why saddling limited optics with 40 is a bad idea 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: Buy new slide, barrel, and plate and have it fit to current frame. Cost to do this if having to pay someone is 1/3-1/2 cost new gun depending on manufacture, still cheaper than new but.... Well, if you're talking go to 9 mil and do all this, it sounds a lot cheaper than all the people buying brand new limited optics guns because they're excited about the division, so count it as a plus 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: Machine slide or add plate and optic to a .40 major gun and load to minor. Again added cost to a gun. I don't quite get this point, because this is one of the reasons that most people use for allowing major in limited optics. It would be cheap to just be able to put an optic on your major gun. So if you don't want to do it and load to minor, why would you want to do it and load to Major as the cost is the same, seems confusing. If that cost is too much it seems like you would just shoot the gun in limited 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: Buy new gun $4,000-$6,000 just to shoot minor. Well, that's what all of the people that are shooting limited optics guns and are excited about the division are doing. But you just listed two or three ways that you could do this for much less then all the people starting up. Sounds like you're well ahead of the curve and have nothing to complain about 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: Screw what the new Kool Aid is and continue to shoot Limited as is knowing very few people will continue with it. If you love limited, that's what I would suggest to do 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: Someone's choice to invest into limited guns and equipment was because the division appealed to them. Then continue shooting limited, or buy equipment to shoot something else. That's what everybody else does 3 minutes ago, jrb06 said: When USPSA first announced LO it sounded like a great idea take you limited gun add an optic if you want and boom good to go. We didn't think USPSA would make LO a minor only division it should be Limited optics, everything the same as limited but added optic to cater to the new trend, rage, Kool Aid, what ever. You just listed above that adding an optic to your limited gun would be an expense and acted like that would be an issue, but now it's not? I and several others posted on these very forums that if limited optics happened it would not be a major division, is that would hamper the division severely moving forward. Most people were able to read the tea leaves that 40 was dead, and with all of the Sao optic ready guns being available in 9 mm that would be the way it went. USPSA had not one, but two votes and both said the majority by a decent margin wanted minor only. Hold those votes again in a year, and the majority is only going to grow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, barry said: I belive they did 40 as major because it was by far the most popular self defense and Leo round on the market.and power factor was higher and the most popular 9mm guns on the market couldn't be loaded to major. So public market dictated caliber. Thank you you've proven my point. This is why limited optics is minor only now, as it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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