ltdmstr Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Ok, so what's the justification for keeping CO and LO separate divisions if both are minor? The only distinction being that LO allows SA which has been shown is no real advantage. Seems the whiners are the ones who want to keep them separate for no good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasdawg Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 5 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Ok, so what's the justification for keeping CO and LO separate divisions if both are minor? The only distinction being that LO allows SA which has been shown is no real advantage. Seems the whiners are the ones who want to keep them separate for no good reason. I agree with you. Make them totally separate or make it one big division. Only reason I'm in LO is I had an open gun spare to re-barrel and install a slide mounted optic on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) 1 hour ago, ltdmstr said: Ok, so what's the justification for keeping CO and LO separate divisions if both are minor? The only distinction being that LO allows SA which has been shown is no real advantage. Seems the whiners are the ones who want to keep them separate for no good reason. sa only is a big advantage, and every division that allows 2011s is totally dominated by them. sure, a few elite sponsored shooters will accept money to give up a couple percent and they will still do well, but that in no way means that 2011s aren’t objectively better for racing. almost everyone sensible seems to becoming to the same conclusion, that reverting to a slightly more restrictive CO is the best way to differentiate the divisions, and also still allow a place for crappy plastic guns to be competitive in the hands of non-pros. Edited January 30 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 On 1/29/2024 at 10:09 AM, Schutzenmeister said: To relegate everything we do going forward to minor only is to pull the plug on one of the founding principles of the sport ... Power. I adamently oppose that. Times change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 2 minutes ago, Rich406 said: Times change. Maybe, but 125 pf isn't what people shoot outside of competition. And most of the 9mm LEO and self defense rounds are closer to major than minor. The 125 pf is just an easy button for the low buy-in, lack of effort crowd. Next up will be participation awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) I kinda wish co would change to idpa's version of CO. But, with 15 or more mag capacity Edit: maybe not, I thought idpa allowed comps in their version of CO Edited January 31 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 minutes ago, Rich406 said: As for the rest of your nonsensical rant? Well, I would say the same for your suggestion that the organization do away with one of the three pillars of the sport, just because some people don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 16 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Maybe, but 125 pf isn't what people shoot outside of competition. And most of the 9mm LEO and self defense rounds are closer to major than minor. The 125 pf is just an easy button for the low buy-in, lack of effort crowd. Next up will be participation awards. You say that, but one of my coworkers/shooting buddies shoots factory 115s (can't remember the brand) and he just barely made PF and it's very blasty/hot. It's county bought ammo, so probably Federal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 11 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Maybe, but 125 pf isn't what people shoot outside of competition. And most of the 9mm LEO and self defense rounds are closer to major than minor. The 125 pf is just an easy button for the low buy-in, lack of effort crowd. Next up will be participation awards. i agree with this. sure, cheap practice rounds are in the 130pf range, but duty/defense rounds seem to be 150pf or higher. ive never been a fan of watering down sports so that lazy people can compete without making any effort. i understand that times change (and people get lazier and weaker), so it’s probably time to bump up minor another 10-15 pts, since we’re not shooting revolvers anymore, and thats the only reason minor pf is so low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, ltdmstr said: Well, I would say the same for your suggestion that the organization do away with one of the three pillars of the sport, just because some people don't like it. I don’t really care one way or the other about that. If LO was major/minor, I’d shoot major without a 2nd thought. However, the reality of the situation is this. 99% of optics ready 2011s are 9mm. There is a huge demand to shoot these guns and LO gives them a place to play within USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 6 minutes ago, RangerTrace said: You say that, but one of my coworkers/shooting buddies shoots factory 115s (can't remember the brand) and he just barely made PF and it's very blasty/hot. It's county bought ammo, so probably Federal. American eagle 115 barely makes 125pf in a p320. Blazer brass 124gr isn’t much better, maybe 128pf. 125pf isn’t that far off from popular off the shelf ammo from major manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, Rich406 said: I don’t really care one way or the other about that. If LO was major/minor, I’d shoot major without a 2nd thought. However, the reality of the situation is this. 99% of optics ready 2011s are 9mm. There is a huge demand to shoot these guns and LO gives them a place to play within USPSA. i agree with this too. i don’t like it, but the truth is that the DEI pendulum has swung to where everyone shoots 9mm so that chicks and poofs can pass their quals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 16 minutes ago, RangerTrace said: You say that, but one of my coworkers/shooting buddies shoots factory 115s (can't remember the brand) and he just barely made PF and it's very blasty/hot. It's county bought ammo, so probably Federal. Maybe check ISP round and similar, which are pretty typical LEO issue for 9mm. Pretty sure those are north of 150 pf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 9 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Maybe check ISP round and similar, which are pretty typical LEO issue for 9mm. Pretty sure those are north of 150 pf. Why are you so fixated on what LEOs shoot? It has no relevance on USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 19 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Maybe check ISP round and similar, which are pretty typical LEO issue for 9mm. Pretty sure those are north of 150 pf. Our duty ammo, which is Speer Gold Got 124 grain +P runs about 148PF. But nobody trains with that at nearly $1 a round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I just don't think current CO shooters would be happy if they restricted them to 15 rounds at this point in order to differentiate CO from LO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Rich406 said: Times change. Changing times does not, necessarily, equate to for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said: Changing times does not, necessarily, equate to for the better. In this particular instance? I’m fine with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, Rich406 said: In this particular instance? I’m fine with it. Some aren't ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, Schutzenmeister said: Some aren't ... Obviously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 23 minutes ago, MHicks said: I just don't think current CO shooters would be happy if they restricted them to 15 rounds at this point in order to differentiate CO from LO. Every CO gun is LO compliant. Plus you get to add a magwell and a thumb rest and even a racker if you want. Going to 15 in CO will not alter match participation to any measurable degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 18 minutes ago, Rich406 said: Why are you so fixated on what LEOs shoot? It has no relevance on USPSA. The whole point of having major power factor relates back to defensive rounds. People here seem to think that because nobody carries 40s or 45s any more, we should move everything to minor pf. In reality, most defensive 9mm rounds are well above 125 pf and many are actually closer to 165 than 125. Also, part of the game was learning how to manage recoil, which is a non-issue with minor pf. At least for anyone with a moderate amount of training and experience. If people want to do away with that, whatever. But, it's kinda like Ironman saying we're not going to have a swim segment because some people don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Rich406 said: Why are you so fixated on what LEOs shoot? It has no relevance on USPSA. this is literally the wrongest thing that has ever been posted in this forum. LEOs invented uspsa as a practical sport to increase practical skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, motosapiens said: this is literally the wrongest thing that has ever been posted in this forum. LEOs invented uspsa as a practical sport to increase practical skills. LEO participation in uspsa is minimal at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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