SCSA - Limited Optics

[guns_and_labs]

Given that there is no power factor in SCSA and no reloads, LO seems to fit just fine in Open.

[Joe4d]

 

Looks like the 2 clubs about 2 hours from me split things up. They were doing steel and ICORE on the same day, now they are a week apart so Bonus I get to shoot twice this month.... decisions decisions on division,,, I put together a 22/45 for steel before I got invited to ICORE, and this month an ICORE stage is a paper steel challenge.. 
I really should shoot steel this weekend with a revolver to practice for the ICORE postal match.
But then.....I havent decided what I am shooting at Icore,, limited open or rimfire

[Joe4d]

22 minutes ago, guns_and_labs said:

Given that there is no power factor in SCSA and no reloads, LO seems to fit just fine in Open.

same could be said about CO,, yet here we are.

[ddc]

21 hours ago, ZackJones said:

Two questions: (1) Would you shoot in an SCSA match as a provisional division and (2) would you just shoot your existing carry optics gun or would you buy one? 

 

 

Since I'm building a LO gun for USPSA and just getting into SCSA (shooting CO) I would be more than happy to shoot SCSA/LO as a provisional division.

The proliferation of divisions is a non-issue for me. 

 

[Hoops]

Doesn’t the nay’s argument hold true for USPSA……yet they are shooting LO and I understand it’s getting very popular there.  
 

lot of limited guns in safes….dovetail adaptor, add a dot and ready to go.  Much less $$ than an open gun.  Yes?

[Joe4d]

Different game. 
No power factor in SC, so comps are pretty useless, no double taps, so the slide vs frame difference isnt as noticeable.

[Hoops]

11 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Different game. 
No power factor in SC, so comps are pretty useless, no double taps, so the slide vs frame difference isnt as noticeable.

One could make an argument that the frame mounted optic vs a slide mounted optic in SC is where the biggest difference is.  The splits between shot one and five are super fast.  Since there are only Alpha’s and Mike’s in steel and 10” plates that can be 56 ft, the optic reaction for NORMAL shooters is noticeable between the two….IMO.

 

I do have one other question.  Are thumb rests allowed on USPSA LO’s?

 

Thanks. 

[jrdoran]

Quote I do have one other question.  Are thumb rests allowed on USPSA LO’s? https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20221220 USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules Recommendation.pdf   Limited Optics Minimum power factor for major - Not applicable Minimum power factor for minor - 125 Minimum bullet weight - No Minimum cartridge dimensions - 9x19 (0.354 x 0.748”) Minimum trigger pull - No Maximum handgun size- No Maximum Magazine Length - 5.561” (141.25mm) or 6.742” (171.25mm) in single stack guns only Maximum ammunition capacity- No

Maximum distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt - Handgun and Mags – 3 3/8” (length of an overlay) Optical/electronic sights permitted - Optical/electronic sights REQUIRED; must be attached directly to slide between rear of slide and ejection port, and may not be mounted to the frame in any way Installed flashlights permitted - Yes. Inoperable units used as weights: Yes. Use of of lasers allowed Compensators and/ or barrel porting permitted - No Slide ports Milling of slide permitted - A slide may be modified specifically for the purpose of installing optical sights or cocking serrations. Textured finishes, grip tape, milling or stippling on the slide to provide texture is also

allowed. Cuts designed to specifically or significantly lighten the slide, such as holes, are allowed After market slides and barrels - SLIDES: You may replace the slide with an OFM or aftermarket slide BARRELS: You may replace the barrel with an OFM or aftermarket barrel Sight blocks permitted - Yes Magwells permitted - Yes Thumb rest permitted - Yes Slide Rackers permitted - Yes

Maximum weight - No Handgun specifically approved for Division - Not applicable Holster restrictions - No

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, jrdoran said:

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20221220 USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules Recommendation.pdf   Limited Optics Minimum power factor for major - Not applicable Minimum power factor for minor - 125 Minimum bullet weight - No Minimum cartridge dimensions - 9x19 (0.354 x 0.748”) Minimum trigger pull - No Maximum handgun size- No Maximum Magazine Length - 5.561” (141.25mm) or 6.742” (171.25mm) in single stack guns only Maximum ammunition capacity- No

Maximum distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt - Handgun and Mags – 3 3/8” (length of an overlay) Optical/electronic sights permitted - Optical/electronic sights REQUIRED; must be attached directly to slide between rear of slide and ejection port, and may not be mounted to the frame in any way Installed flashlights permitted - Yes. Inoperable units used as weights: Yes. Use of of lasers allowed Compensators and/ or barrel porting permitted - No Slide ports Milling of slide permitted - A slide may be modified specifically for the purpose of installing optical sights or cocking serrations. Textured finishes, grip tape, milling or stippling on the slide to provide texture is also

allowed. Cuts designed to specifically or significantly lighten the slide, such as holes, are allowed After market slides and barrels - SLIDES: You may replace the slide with an OFM or aftermarket slide BARRELS: You may replace the barrel with an OFM or aftermarket barrel Sight blocks permitted - Yes Magwells permitted - Yes Thumb rest permitted - Yes Slide Rackers permitted - Yes

Maximum weight - No Handgun specifically approved for Division - Not applicable Holster restrictions - No

Perfect.  Thanks.  

[Hoops]

One more question (I hope)
 

Anyone have a comment as to why LO’s is reported to be gaining popularity at uspsa matches given similarities to Open?

 

 

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Hoops said:

One more question (I hope)
 

Anyone have a comment as to why LO’s is reported to be gaining popularity at uspsa matches given similarities to Open?

 

 

 

Guns that work with less tuning, and factory ammo. And especially factory ammo. And did I mention minor power factor LOL

[Hoops]

14 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Guns that work with less tuning, and factory ammo. And especially factory ammo. And did I mention minor power factor LOL 

Thanks.

 

Another friend of mine shoots only USPSA with his Open gun (his only match gun) does'nt like to shoot SCSA because he does not like using up his major loads.  He says his gun is not reliable with factory minor loads.  

 

I own a 2014 STI Steelmaster.  This gun was designed to run minor.....and even lighter loads.  My gun runs 100%.  Besides being a bit more finicky, Open gun are expensive.  I can see where a person shooting SCSA, wiht factory minor ammo would embrace a LO gun.  Dovetail adaptor's are inexpesive and available.  

 

I suppose time will tell if/when SCSA will adopt a LO provisial as they did in USPSA (they sort of opened the door on this one).

 

Thanks guys, I appreciate everyone's input.  

[Hammerman]

If you take out the rimfire division of SCSA, you have the same amount of divisions as USPSA.  But I agree, an LO division doesn't really add much to SCSA.  They'll probably add it in the future though.

[Joe4d]

13 hours ago, Hammerman said:

If you take out the rimfire division of SCSA, you have the same amount of divisions as USPSA.  But I agree, an LO division doesn't really add much to SCSA.  They'll probably add it in the future though.

having Production, Limited and SS make sense for USPSA,,, as the capacity, and power factor make a pretty big difference in scoring at USPSA,,  No power factor, no capacity issue so no sense in Steel to have them separate. 

[Racinready300ex]

With no PF or capacity it seems like the real differences in this game are only centerfire vs rimfire and irons vs optics. Everything else seems minor. Oh, and I guess rifles vs pistols. 

 

Even within uspsa and our power factors and capacities SS and production are basically head to head divisions. If it wasn't of capacity and major scoring Limited would be right there too. 

[Hoops]

Now that I’ve read comments and had time to think about it, since I own a Steelmaster there is no reason for me to consider LO in SCSA.

 

However, i can see people in SC that would prefer to shoot their LO gun in LO division rather than Open.  I’m predicting that the more it gains popularity in USPSA it will carry over to SCSA.  Evolution I think is good for the sport.  
 

as for my STI Edge, I’m going to add a Nelson 22lr conversion to it.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

Now that I’ve read comments and had time to think about it, since I own a Steelmaster there is no reason for me to consider LO in SCSA.

 

However, i can see people in SC that would prefer to shoot their LO gun in LO division rather than Open.  I’m predicting that the more it gains popularity in USPSA it will carry over to SCSA.  Evolution I think is good for the sport.  
 

as for my STI Edge, I’m going to add a Nelson 22lr conversion to it.

 

I think you're likely right. People think every little change to there gun is a huge advantage and want to be separated so they don't feel out gunned. You can't convince them they're wrong. And more divisions means more chances to win. It will likely mean less shooters in each division which automatically moves you up in the results.

 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

Now that I’ve read comments and had time to think about it, since I own a Steelmaster there is no reason for me to consider LO in SCSA.

 

However, i can see people in SC that would prefer to shoot their LO gun in LO division rather than Open.  I’m predicting that the more it gains popularity in USPSA it will carry over to SCSA.  Evolution I think is good for the sport.  
 

as for my STI Edge, I’m going to add a Nelson 22lr conversion to it.

Probably correct. Especially considering Steel Challenge is run by a USPSA BOD that is absolutely clueless  or doesnt care about steel challenge

 

[jrdoran]

It sounds like at best LO will be provisional in 2024 and perhaps have PST in 2025 if I read the post from Zach correctly.   You will have plenty of time to think about it.

[Squirrel45]

We barely have anyone around my area running CO or Open. I can not see it taking off in big way here. Seems everyone is going RF at my local matches. Though PCCs do have a following. Do you guys have a lot of Open and CO shooters at your matches? 

[jrdoran]

1 hour ago, Squirrel45 said:

We barely have anyone around my area running CO or Open. I can not see it taking off in big way here. Seems everyone is going RF at my local matches. Though PCCs do have a following. Do you guys have a lot of Open and CO shooters at your matches? 

YES; Depends on the maturity of the club matches I've noticed. 

 

My 8 stage match last week that I run, out of 31 guns, 15 were CO/OPN / OSR and best overall match classification was by CO 2 weeks in a row;

 

 

and Tomorrow's match also is quite well represented with CF Pistols; 

 

[GKB]

We already have under represented divisions in SC.  Why add another to dilute the number of shooters in each division?

[UFO]

On 8/15/2023 at 4:50 PM, ZackJones said:

This one is on me. At the Jan 2023 in person meeting I asked the BoD to exclude LO from SCSA as a provisional division. I wanted to see how well it would do in USPSA handgun matches and it's currently doing better than expected. I can see it being added in 2024 as a provisional division for SCSA. I would prefer to do provisional for one year to allow us to collect times to help us come up with a good set of Peak Stage Times for classification purposes. And no, club 13 won't become club 14 :). 

 

Two questions: (1) Would you shoot in an SCSA match as a provisional division and (2) would you just shoot your existing carry optics gun or would you buy one? 

 

I'd shoot it but with my CO gun. I wouldn't buy another gun to shoot it. 

 

Zack, I don't think it should be adopted in SCSA. I would bet that the majority of activity is shooters using their CO just to get classified, like myself.  

[zzt]

Here is the breakout for last weekend's match.  RFPI 6, RFPO 19, RFRI 7, RFRO 28, PCCI 2, PCCO 11, Opn 4, ISR 1, OSR 3, Lim 6, CO 8, SS 1, LO 0.  98 shooters total and not a single LO. 

 

Of the 98 shooters, 47 shot 22 rifles and 13 shot PCCs.  Long guns occupied the top 31 spots overall.  It's been going this way for quite a while.  More long guns and fewer pistols.  It will be interesting to see if this mix remains when factory 9mm and primer prices come down.  There used to be fewer RFRx and more PCCx.

 

Drop the four revolvers.  Those three guys wouldn't shoot anything else if you paid them.  So, 19 centerfire pistols.  What surprised me was Open.  There used to be a lot more shooters in Open.

Edited August 28, 2023 by zzt

[shred]

IME once rimfire went "mainstream" in SC all the centerfire divisions started to dwindle, especially Open as that was no longer the way to the fastest times.