Rival-S Chambering Issue

[telligentgunner]

I've discovered a serious issue with my Rival-S and I'd like to know if anyone else can replicate the issue.

 

When I insert a magazine with a round in it and magazine extension on and then apply constant upward pressure from the bottom, the slide moves about a millimeter and then stops.  To clear the jam, I can either slap the back of the slide, pull the magazine down a bit, or lock the slide back again and remove the magazine.

 

I replicated the same issue with a factory mag with no extension on it but with more pressure than I had to use with a magazine with an extension on it. 

 

I tried to replicate the issue on my Glocks and this doesn't happen on Glocks.

 

I think this issue is caused my gun not to function properly when I took it out to zero my dot.  I got a lot of intermittent slide locks that made me want to throw the thing in the trash.

 

This could be a serious safety issue during a self-defense situation for someone under stress trying to reload using the slide release and a magazine that has an extension on it by not completing the process in the right order. 

 

Please try and report back. 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by telligentgunner

[telligentgunner]

Seriously? No one is willing to take the time to see if there's a potential problem with this gun?

 

Century Arms seems to be as enthusiastic about solving the problem too.

 

I have also replicated the problem with an EMPTY magazine.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by telligentgunner

[Chappytactical]

17 minutes ago, telligentgunner said:

Seriously? No one is willing to take the time to see if there's a potential problem with this gun?

 

Century Arms seems to be as enthusiastic about solving the problem too.

 

 

Sent you a message.

[Ajsomp]

On 4/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, telligentgunner said:

Seriously? No one is willing to take the time to see if there's a potential problem with this gun?

 

Century Arms seems to be as enthusiastic about solving the problem too.

 

I have also replicated the problem with an EMPTY magazine.

 

 

I have the same issues. It seemed to resolve itself after 1000 rounds. To me it seems like the magazines are able to over insert and push against the slide stop. 
 

I don’t know if it’s fully resolved, but I had no issues as I approached 1000 rounds today on the range. I had lots of intermittent issues in the first 500. 

[Slow250]

Same issues. Have been experimenting with different recoil springs and mags/guts. I'm probably around 1500 rounds. Will report back if/when I find a setting I think is 100%

[Ajsomp]

8 hours ago, Slow250 said:

Same issues. Have been experimenting with different recoil springs and mags/guts. I'm probably around 1500 rounds. Will report back if/when I find a setting I think is 100%

I was able to narrow it and look at the relation of the magazine and the slide lock. For me, it’s not an issue of the RSA or weight, it’s the slight gap from where the baseplate reaches the bottom of the magwell that allows it to be inserted just enough to cause an issue. I pulled the magazine just slightly back out and the slide went forward. That tells me either it’s either the magazine or the gun- but I’m leaning towards the gun if other people are experiencing it. 

[GJM]

I experienced a similar problem with a few polymer Rivals. Not something you notice with 140 mags that don't lock back. 

[telligentgunner]

I contacted Century Arms (aka Canik U.S.A.), described the issue, and they said there are parts that need to be replaced.  Rather than them sending me the parts and replacing them myself, I opted to send the gun to them, have them do it, and test it to make sure everything runs as expected. 

 

I anyone is having the same issues, use the warranty and get them to fix the issues.

[stephenmcrna]

My steel frame  is at Canik as well for same issues.  Im not sure I expect them to do anything different. I will report when I get it back.  My Freind has a chrome and a black.  Only the chrome runs reliably.  I have a black. I think there might be a thin layer of coating on black making the chamber tighter.  Not sure 

[Ajsomp]

On 5/2/2023 at 1:02 PM, stephenmcrna said:

My steel frame  is at Canik as well for same issues.  Im not sure I expect them to do anything different. I will report when I get it back.  My Freind has a chrome and a black.  Only the chrome runs reliably.  I have a black. I think there might be a thin layer of coating on black making the chamber tighter.  Not sure 

I’d be curious if all the issues are with the black versions, that’s the one I’ve got 

[Slow250]

No, mine is chrome. Same thing.

[Boss1622]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:31 PM, telligentgunner said:

I contacted Century Arms (aka Canik U.S.A.), described the issue, and they said there are parts that need to be replaced.  Rather than them sending me the parts and replacing them myself, I opted to send the gun to them, have them do it, and test it to make sure everything runs as expected. 

 

I anyone is having the same issues, use the warranty and get them to fix the issues.

Do you know what parts they are replacing? 

I have narrowed the problem down a bit more. If you take the slide off and insert the magazine, the magazine will lock into place and it will not be sticking up above the frame (where the slide would be sitting) but you can then push the magazine and it will move up more and now it's above the frame. To very this is the problem remove the magazine and put the slide back on. Now put the magazine back in and keep pressure on it so it's is up as far as it can go. The pull the slide back as far as it will go and let it move forward, it will probably hang up on the magazine. If you look closer you will see the slid is not up to the point that the slide stop will hold it.  

I think the problem can be corrected in at least 3 ways. 

1. A magazine catch with more material on below the catch point so it matches the notch in the magazine ( my guess is they made it this way to make it ambidextrous).

2. Limit the slide movement so it just goes past the slide stop (something like Shock buffers in 1911s). 

3. Mill the slide to allow for magazine clearance. 

4. Take some material off the back-top corners of the magazines. 

I have a service request in with Canik, I'll let you know what they say. 

 

[shred]

That's pretty common in CZ's and other pistols too.  Tolerance stack ups and the need to insert a mag past the catch for it to click in reliably make it tough to eliminate completely across the board with random frames and mag tubes and basepads.  There are special 2011 mag catches with overtravel blocks and different heights are available too.  Dawson makes them in the Posi-Lock line, others maybe too.

 

Taller basepads above the rim also can prevent it.  I made 3 different sizes of Shockbottle CZ pads for a while for this reason.

 

[stephenmcrna]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:30 PM, Slow250 said:

No, mine is chrome. Same thing.

Damn. Oh well.   

[urmaker45]

My black rival sfx s is doing the same thing with henninggroup base pads . Please let me know if you fix it . 

[telligentgunner]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:55 PM, Boss1622 said:

Do you know what parts they are replacing?

 

I don't know what they're replacing. I chose to send the gun to them, let them take care of it, and have them test it so it rounds as it should.  If you want a response, you'll have to call and get someone on the phone.

 

From MBX's website about their new Canik competition magazines:

"Our new competition design on the Canik tightens up the mag catch slot tolerance. This prevents the factory mag catch and the magazine from over insertion causing any ejector or feed lip damage."

 

Yes, let us know what they say that needs to be replaced.

 

I ended up making a few videos showing the problems. If you look at the comments, there are a lot of other people having the same issues. 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by telligentgunner

[mrvip27]

This is probably why the gun has been hard to get. I hope Canik is stopping the production to fix the issue before sending out guns.

 

[Racinready300ex]

My plastic rival does this too if I make it. (slide catching on mag from slide lock) It's not really something I'm worried about as it can't really happen shooting. Nothing is going to put pressure up on the bottom of the mag while shooting, and in uspsa I'm not going to slide lock. It's much worse with the henning base pads on the gun.

 

In IDPA with the factory mags/base pads you again can make it happen but as soon as you release the pressure on the mag the slide goes. Again, this means it shouldn't be a issue while I'm shooting and so far in testing it hasn't. 

 

@telligentgunner in your second video where you're beating the gun open, that's a symptom of ammo that's to long for the chamber. These certainly have a short chamber, did you plunk your ammo to make sure it all fit? Even factory ammo can be to long, you have to check. 

[stephenmcrna]

I sent my steel frame in.  They said I need a new barrel and are waiting on parts.  I'm at about 6 weeks now.   

[mrvip27]

On 6/6/2023 at 10:08 AM, stephenmcrna said:

I sent my steel frame in.  They said I need a new barrel and are waiting on parts.  I'm at about 6 weeks now.   

 

6 weeks...ouch. Could be worse! But glad they are fixing it.

[telligentgunner]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:11 AM, Racinready300ex said:

My plastic rival does this too if I make it. (slide catching on mag from slide lock) It's not really something I'm worried about as it can't really happen shooting. Nothing is going to put pressure up on the bottom of the mag while shooting, and in uspsa I'm not going to slide lock. It's much worse with the henning base pads on the gun.

 

In IDPA with the factory mags/base pads you again can make it happen but as soon as you release the pressure on the mag the slide goes. Again, this means it shouldn't be a issue while I'm shooting and so far in testing it hasn't. 

 

@telligentgunner in your second video where you're beating the gun open, that's a symptom of ammo that's to long for the chamber. These certainly have a short chamber, did you plunk your ammo to make sure it all fit? Even factory ammo can be to long, you have to check. 

It locks open when shooting too.  It happened the first couple magazines and I was ready to throw it in the dirt.  And I shouldn't have to check my ammo every time I buy some ammo. 

I don't have these problems with Glocks.  When you pay more than a Glock, you expect it to work as good or better than a Glock.  If not, don't release it.

There are no other videos on YouTube about these problems but mine and one other, but there are plenty of comments from people having the same issues.  This is absolutely not good. 

 

On 6/6/2023 at 10:08 AM, stephenmcrna said:

I sent my steel frame in.  They said I need a new barrel and are waiting on parts.  I'm at about 6 weeks now.   

 

Damn, I'm 4 weeks in and they said 4-6 weeks. I'm not optimistic any more. 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by telligentgunner

[Racinready300ex]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:45 PM, telligentgunner said:

It locks open when shooting too.  It happened the first couple magazines and I was ready to throw it in the dirt.  And I shouldn't have to check my ammo every time I buy some ammo. 

I don't have these problems with Glocks.  When you pay more than a Glock, you expect it to work as good or better than a Glock.  If not, don't release it.

There are no other videos on YouTube about these problems but mine and one other, but there are plenty of comments from people having the same issues.  This is absolutely not good. 

 

 

Damn, I'm 4 weeks in and they said 4-6 weeks. I'm not optimistic any more. 

 

 

If you don't want to worry about the ammo you have two options ream the barrel to specs you prefer or pick a different gun.

 

Like you said glocks seem to work okay. Although I've heard Gen 5's have short chambers too. Definitely avoid a CZ, and Tanfo which are even more expensive. This isn't a uncommon thing, and it's not really that the gun is built wrong they just use different spec ammo. 

[Slow250]

I read recently one guy was told by customer service that the mag catch was the issue, and they were sending a new catch that limited vertical movement on inserted mags, however like the rest its backordered. I've seen DisDef makes a replacement mag catch. Anyone know if it has tighter tolerances or used it to good effects?

[Thomas918]

On 6/6/2023 at 12:08 PM, stephenmcrna said:

I sent my steel frame in.  They said I need a new barrel and are waiting on parts.  I'm at about 6 weeks now.   

I've been trying to get a new barrel for my Rival-S since April. Let me know when they get you yours. And make sure they install the Rival-S's barrel and not the polymer Rival barrel. I only mention that because they sent me 3 polymer Rival barrels instead of the Rival-S's, even though the customer service guy made a note to make sure I was given the right one. 

[telligentgunner]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:34 PM, Thomas918 said:

I've been trying to get a new barrel for my Rival-S since April. Let me know when they get you yours. And make sure they install the Rival-S's barrel and not the polymer Rival barrel. I only mention that because they sent me 3 polymer Rival barrels instead of the Rival-S's, even though the customer service guy made a note to make sure I was given the right one. 

 

Are you trying to buy a new barrel or get the one you have replaced?  If replaced, are you just sending them your barrel, sending them your whole gun, or what?

 

I'm getting my Rival-S back from warranty service and they did not do anything about the barrel.  I have a feeling I'm going to have the same extraction issues.  I don't want to worry about getting it reamed so it can shoot a variety of ammo that it should in the first place.