Compensator rule.

[RePete]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:51 AM, usmc1974 said:

Wow ! I have never guessed it, I would say IDPA is pretty much gone IPSC.

What is that all saying a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Just WOW!!

It's been IPSC (lite) for 6 years now.

[dwbethue]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:38 AM, usmc1974 said:

So is this legal in IDPA any category

I believe this would only be legal in ESP, CO, or CCP (comps/ports in general). The rule for comps/porting is under the ESP rules which extend to CO and CCP as long as it meets all other division requirements. I don't believe comps/ports are allowed in SSP, even from the factory.

[765para]

Still not sure how to read this.

What about guns that come with a comp, but the comp can easily be removed (e.g. Springfield Hellcat RDP for CCP).

This should follow CCP rules, so the ESP rules for comps apply.

Will this be legal now?

Edited March 12, 2023 by 765para

[GOF]

22 hours ago, RePete said:

It's been IPSC (lite) for 6 years now.

Joyce Fowler screwed things up so badly at IDPA when she took over that members left by the thousands. I was one of them, a member since 2005 and a Certified SO. Now she's scrambling to get those membership dollars flowing back her way again.... any way she can. She's desperate to keep gas in her airplane.

[dwbethue]

1 hour ago, 765para said:

Still not sure how to read this.

What about guns that come with a comp, but the comp can easily be removed (e.g. Springfield Hellcat RDP for CCP).

This should follow CCP rules, so the ESP rules for comps apply.

Will this be legal now?

My understanding is that this would still not be allowed, even though they've removed the specific language banning/forbidding thread on and pinned comps. It's difficult because essentially the rules leave a lot of room for interpretation, nuance, and judgement calls, which is not ideal on its own, but then those interpretations are primarily left up to the individual Area Coordinators versus the same central body that issues the rules.

Edited March 12, 2023 by dwbethue
Spelling/clarification

[RePete]

This is where the problem lays.  "It is my understanding."

 

It should that we all understand without reservation.  That's where a well written rulebook comes in  and not one written by rank amateurs.

[765para]

Technically the old 8.1.7.2 "Compensators of any type including hybrid or ported barrels." from the 2022 rulebook is gone, so it is not forbidden anymore. However, the allowing rule for this permitted modification is still vague.

Since it is not clearly forbidden anymore, it should be allowed. Personally I would appreciate a clear guidance on comps from IDPA here to avoid match-specific discussions with MDs/ACs/ISC/IPoCs etc here... or wait for a 2023 v3 rulebook

 

[MarilynMonbro]

On 3/12/2023 at 12:18 PM, 765para said:

Still not sure how to read this.

What about guns that come with a comp, but the comp can easily be removed (e.g. Springfield Hellcat RDP for CCP).

This should follow CCP rules, so the ESP rules for comps apply.

Will this be legal now?

I asked an AC and this would be legal 

Edited March 15, 2023 by MarilynMonbro

[RePete]

1 hour ago, MarilynMonbro said:

I asked an AC and this would be legal 

That would be great if all of the other AC's agree!

[765para]

14 hours ago, MarilynMonbro said:

I asked an AC and this would be legal 

Thanks for asking. This is consistent with my reading, and my ISC was also indicating this could be ok. My next tier 2 match will be in May, so I will know shortly

[Racinready300ex]

This year being a "world championship" year. I tried to find out how it'll be ruled there. I was told to talk to the MD because it doesn't really fall under the AC for the match location. I was given the MD's email, and reached out to him but didn't get a response. 

 

[matteekay]

I clarified this with our AC. His rulings are:

 

- Compensators of any configuration are legal in ESP/CO/CCP/BUG-S provided they're a factory offered option with a corresponding SKU. Yes, we're bringing SKU's into ESP.

- Porting is the same; it's allowed, provided it was a factory offering for that gun.

 

I sent a mess of photos and examples to get as much clarity as I could. Based on this judgement, a Sig P320 Spectre Comp is legal, while a P320 configured the exact same way with a Parker Mountain Machine comp is NOT legal.

 

I don't know how a shooter who reads the rulebook would EVER understand that "firearms with an incorporated compensator are legal" is supposed to mean "firearms that came from the factory with a compensator and/or porting are legal provided they're of a factory configuration with a corresponding SKU that can be referenced by a SO". God bless the poor SO's working at Worlds this year...

Edited March 21, 2023 by matteekay

[Racinready300ex]

On 3/21/2023 at 6:07 PM, matteekay said:

I clarified this with our AC. His rulings are:

 

- Compensators of any configuration are legal in ESP/CO/CCP/BUG-S provided they're a factory offered option with a corresponding SKU. Yes, we're bringing SKU's into ESP.

- Porting is the same; it's allowed, provided it was a factory offering for that gun.

 

I sent a mess of photos and examples to get as much clarity as I could. Based on this judgement, a Sig P320 Spectre Comp is legal, while a P320 configured the exact same way with a Parker Mountain Machine comp is NOT legal.

 

I don't know how a shooter who reads the rulebook would EVER understand that "firearms with an incorporated compensator are legal" is supposed to mean "firearms that came from the factory with a compensator and/or porting are legal provided they're of a factory configuration with a corresponding SKU that can be referenced by a SO". God bless the poor SO's working at Worlds this year...

 

That's always been IDPA's biggest issue to me. You can't know the rules by reading the rule book. 

[matteekay]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That's always been IDPA's biggest issue to me. You can't know the rules by reading the rule book. 

 

I said as much in my reply (respectfully). I disagree with this approach but fine, if it's how they want to handle it, that's how I'll enforce it. However, the rule has to be updated so that the average competitor can read the ruling and have it make sense without being privy to an email thread between the AC and myself.

[DocMedic]

So if the STI XC is allowed, would the Atlas Erebus be allowed also?

https://atlasgunworks.com/cache/image-full-50033-73216b8e59713e81042a91d45efd6b22.jpg

[matteekay]

7 minutes ago, DocMedic said:

So if the STI XC is allowed, would the Atlas Erebus be allowed also?

https://atlasgunworks.com/cache/image-full-50033-73216b8e59713e81042a91d45efd6b22.jpg

 

If it makes weight, fits in the box, and you have the same AC as me... yes.

[Racinready300ex]

My local club, who is probably the biggest IDPA club around here. They do 6 matches a month plus one level 3 a year. Well they did anyway. They've started writing their own rule book, and running their own match 5x a month and have 1 IDPA match a month. And I'd bet you in a few more months IDPA will be gone there. Then it's just a matter of time until they start trying to recruit other IDPA clubs in the area.

[RePete]

45 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

My local club, who is probably the biggest IDPA club around here. They do 6 matches a month plus one level 3 a year. Well they did anyway. They've started writing their own rule book, and running their own match 5x a month and have 1 IDPA match a month. And I'd bet you in a few more months IDPA will be gone there. Then it's just a matter of time until they start trying to recruit other IDPA clubs in the area.

Because IDPA keeps changing/coming out with a new poorly written rulebook?

[Racinready300ex]

33 minutes ago, RePete said:

Because IDPA keeps changing/coming out with a new poorly written rulebook?

 

I think it's frustration with the rules, the changing of the rules and the lack of clarity. They want a rule set that doesn't cause so much wasted time debating/arguing. They just want to shoot and have fun. 

 

[Jim Watson]

An outfit in Georgia had a schism with IDPA and drew up their own target and adjusted the rules.  I noticed they returned to the fold.

 

The small local club here is run by a guy who is smarter than Bill and has mutated IDPA.  Not as badly as the above, the immediately obvious change is that he is putting guns and knives on the threat targets and leaving non threats blank.  He doesn't bother with fault lines either, and doesn't eyeball cover as closely as IDPA used to.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Jim Watson

[usmc1974]

Why does IDPA even still exist? All they're doing is pretending not to be IPSC.

[GJM]

Someone recently told me that IDPA's membership is greater than that of USPSA?

[matteekay]

1 hour ago, GJM said:

Someone recently told me that IDPA's membership is greater than that of USPSA?

 

Nah, there's no way that's true. 

[RePete]

7 hours ago, GJM said:

Someone recently told me that IDPA's membership is greater than that of USPSA?

There are over 37000 USPSA members in the US with Russia being second.  From USPSA site.

 

There are about 27000 - 28000 IDPA members world wide.

[GJM]

23 minutes ago, RePete said:

There are over 37000 USPSA members in the US with Russia being second.  From USPSA site.

 

There are about 27000 - 28000 IDPA members world wide.

With about 30,000 of those USPSA members all trying to register for CO Nats!
 

Kidding aside, can you provide links to both USPSA and IDPA membership numbers, as I searched and couldn't find that info. IDPA is surprisingly large to me.