You got your wish

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

If Production 15 or whatever-fits-the-box revives Production at all, I wonder how long it will be before 2011 fans start hollering about allowing SAO in Production.  

 

I'd shoot some Sao production......

[deerslayer]

I probably would too. 

[SuperKing]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

I'd shoot some Sao production......

Not against it at this point, but soonest would be 2023 if they had already announced the provisional changes. So realistically 2025 with Prod being an existing division, which is why we ended up with Limited Optics. Faster to make a new division than modify the existing.

Edited December 28, 2022 by SuperKing

[BritinUSA]

5 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

I don't agree with loading to mag capacity, as that will exclude many more guns and pretty much drive the division to just a few high capacity models. 

This is precisely the reason why IPSC changed from factory-limit to 15 rounds in Production. It seemed to make no difference to participation 

 

Ten rounds is too low for the design of stages that are prevalent in USPSA L1 matches, 

[Braxton1]

I texted with my AD earlier.  January 2024 is the earliest that Hi-Cap Prod can happen because of a BoD procedure about Rule changes.  My argument was "Implement immediately because almost everybody that has/does shoot Production is doing it with downloaded magazines.  They already own 15+ round mags.".

 

I have long advocated to see "15" as the standard. just for compatibility with the IPSC rulebook....

[happygunner77]

For those who said there's not much difference in 10-15, it is dependent on the stage layout rather than round count. 

 

a 24 round stage will have 1 more reload for 10 rounds, a 32 round stage that does, 6-10-7-9 array mixed with steel changes your game plan for 10 round mags. That's the fun aspect of it. 

 

That being said, it does magnify your deficiency not only in shooting, but also stage planning, and mag changing skills. Which all I find the fun aspect of the prod 10 division. 

 

But I expected the. org will cater to the mass as numbers talks rather than inputs. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, happygunner77 said:

 

I only shoot it primarily and never cared how many shot it. It's dead because of dots and hi cap mag or class B and above shooters but class C mag changer. L10 is still alive but no, let's mess with production. 

 

Mag change is an art form. 

 

LOL "mag change is an art form" that's hilarious.

 

You are in serious denial if you think production doesn't need help

[shred]

35 minutes ago, Braxton1 said:

I texted with my AD earlier.  January 2024 is the earliest that Hi-Cap Prod can happen because of a BoD procedure about Rule changes.  My argument was "Implement immediately because almost everybody that has/does shoot Production is doing it with downloaded magazines.  They already own 15+ round mags.".

 

I have long advocated to see "15" as the standard. just for compatibility with the IPSC rulebook....

 

So quicker is to form a new Provisional Production 15 and then count the votes from people voting with their feet.

 

[happygunner77]

4 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

LOL "mag change is an art form" that's hilarious.

 

You are in serious denial if you think production doesn't need help

 

A class D mag changer can't appreciate it, it's hilarious. Plus, why do you care so much about it if you don't shoot it? And you mean help by catering to class D mag changer like a participation trophy? Of course the .org will lean to wherever the numbers will be. 
 

I also hope there'll be a rule that the max distance on the targets will be just 20 yd, only one tux, and one NS per match so everyone can have fun. 

[JFlowers]

Don't really shoot Production much, but I do remember the discussions on the IPSC Forum when their Production came out.  It was basically a "Can we get one more round" arms race to find the gun that met the rules and gave the maximum capacity - first Glock, then CZ, etc.  Something the 10rd rule in USPSA steered away from.  However, given the current state of handguns, I don't see USPSA Production going to the Box creating that kind of war.  Personally, I like 140mm but will shoot whatever the rule is.

[ranger]

I remember when "Production" started and it seemed to be an opportunity to shoot "production" guns that were available at almost every local gun store. As always, it quickly evolved into a new series of "race guns" that met the definition of "production".

[CC3D]

People want to shoot high cap guns. People want to shoot 9mm guns. I see this rule change as a win for the division. 

 

Now those people actually have a choice whether or not they want to shoot a dot or not- before their only option for the above was CO. Now Prod will be a viable choice and I believe some life will be breathed into the division. 

[Dazhi]

Not sure why 141mm mag is not an option for Production mag rule changes on the USPSA survey form. 

IMO that's going to bring Production back to life quickly. 

I always think CO and Prod should have the same rule set except dot vs. iron.  

[Dirty_J]

1 minute ago, Dazhi said:

Not sure why 141mm mag is not an option for Production mag rule changes on the USPSA survey form. 

IMO that's going to bring Production back to life quickly. 

I always think CO and Prod should have the same rule set except dot vs. iron.  

I can appreciate that. Add it to the additional comments. 
 

I think most divisions should align for all rules… except for the optics. 
 

Production15/Production Optics 15

Limited/Limited Optics 

 

Indifferent on the capacity for production/production optics. I’d say go 15 for all… but that’ll upset the current CO boys. I think 15 for all makes it far more interesting 

[BritinUSA]

4 hours ago, ranger said:

I remember when "Production" started and it seemed to be an opportunity to shoot "production" guns that were available at almost every local gun store. As always, it quickly evolved into a new series of "race guns" that met the definition of "production".

I'm still not sure why USPSA diverged so far from the original intent of the division. While it's true that there were some minor changes in the IPSC division, it's still essentially an out-of-the-box production gun.

[BritinUSA]

48 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

I think most divisions should align for all rules… except for the optics. 
 

Production15/Production Optics 15

Limited/Limited Optics 

I agree, though I doubt it will happen.

 

I still think Open has a short future, especially as there will now be two other handgun optic divisions to choose from: LO and CO. 

[Cuz]

Production should be left alone, at least for a few more years, while some new mag restrictions work their way through the courts. With a 10 round limit, everyone can play there anywhere in the Country with no worries. 
 

Currently, RI has a 10 round mag restriction in place with NO grandfather clause. 
Production and L-10 may start to see a resurgence there, along with Revolvers. 
 

[erwos]

22 hours ago, rowdyb said:

It shocked me to read the review of 2022 activity numbers. I started uspsa when Prod was ascending and saw it at its height. To see it be sooooo low now in percent of activity is sad.

I also started out shooting Prod and SSP, and it's sad how few people do it now. IDPA has had a bit of a resurgence with SSP after it went to 15rds, but it's shocking how many people at the club level don't even know there was a capacity bump.

 

I was good with any of the changes for Prod, but I think I voted for "fits the box".

[Braxton1]

11 hours ago, Dazhi said:

Not sure why 141mm mag is not an option for Production mag rule changes on the USPSA survey form. 

IMO that's going to bring Production back to life quickly. 

I always think CO and Prod should have the same rule set except dot vs. iron.  

 

IIRC, Carry Optics in the US was originally spec'ed out to be "Production with a Slide-mounted Dot".  It was initially a 10-round Division.  Max weight was 35 oz. and all holster and mag pouch rules applied to both Production and CO.

[erwos]

34 minutes ago, Braxton1 said:

 

IIRC, Carry Optics in the US was originally spec'ed out to be "Production with a Slide-mounted Dot".  It was initially a 10-round Division.  Max weight was 35 oz. and all holster and mag pouch rules applied to both Production and CO.

It got progressively dumber from there, alas. Maybe it's because I started out shooting low-cap, but I never understood why the 10 round limit was such a big deal. I enjoyed shooting OG Carry Optics.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

12 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

I can appreciate that. Add it to the additional comments. 
 

I think most divisions should align for all rules… except for the optics. 
 

Production15/Production Optics 15

Limited/Limited Optics 

 

Indifferent on the capacity for production/production optics. I’d say go 15 for all… but that’ll upset the current CO boys. I think 15 for all makes it far more interesting 

 

I'd be down for that realignment with some tweaks to reduce the weight of P/CO/PO pistols down to a more realistic level (heaviest popular guns + a couple ounces for optic and mag) and to dramatically reduce the external modifications that aren't practical (gaz pedals/tumbrests/other protrusions).  Making CO guns fit in a tight box with a top cutout for the optic (like IDPA's CO box) would fix a lot of issues without having to name every single prohibited mod.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, erwos said:

I also started out shooting Prod and SSP

 

So did I but slide ride optics are superior to iron sights and are the future.

[CC3D]

13 hours ago, Dazhi said:

Not sure why 141mm mag is not an option for Production mag rule changes on the USPSA survey form. 

IMO that's going to bring Production back to life quickly. 

I always think CO and Prod should have the same rule set except dot vs. iron.  

Agree here 100%. Plenty of people want to shoot irons in USPSA they just have literally no other choice for high cap minor division. Will it be as big as CO? No. But it will at least give people the option. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, Cuz said:

Production should be left alone, at least for a few more years, while some new mag restrictions work their way through the courts. With a 10 round limit, everyone can play there anywhere in the Country with no worries. 
 

Currently, RI has a 10 round mag restriction in place with NO grandfather clause. 
Production and L-10 may start to see a resurgence there, along with Revolvers. 
 

 

This fallacy needs to be addressed over and over.

 

There are eight states where this is a problem.  Three on the west coat and five on the northeast.  Of those northeastern states, it takes 3 of them (NJ, CT, RI) to almost equal the population of Ohio so we can literally count them as one.

 

You can deal with the issue the same way people who shoot hi cap in your states deal with it when going to places where we can fill them up.  The rest of us don't need your handicaps.

 

USPSA rule 3.3.1 is there for you

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 minutes ago, CC3D said:

Plenty of people want to shoot irons in USPSA

 

Participation numbers don't seem to bear that out.