Limited Optics

[SufferInSilence]

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

This is my fundamental problem with the proposal. There's an extremely small amount of people that aren't going to move the needle to grow the sport that CAN play in Open already. 

 

What you're saying was pretty much exactly what was said when carry optics was proposed. 

 

But since carry optics was proposed, there have been a bunch of both striker and double action single action guns and Sao guns that are optics ready released from production gun companies, not just commercial done companies. So picking up a bunch of people that have Sao guns, whether new shooters or current shooters is fairly realistic possibility

[SufferInSilence]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

What you're saying was pretty much exactly what was said when carry optics was proposed. 

 

But since carry optics was proposed, there have been a bunch of both striker and double action single action guns and Sao guns that are optics ready released from production gun companies, not just commercial done companies. So picking up a bunch of people that have Sao guns, whether new shooters or current shooters is fairly realistic possibility

Yup and the mootness/ ridiculousness/ redundancy issue went out the window when the sport allowed PCC to be a thing anyway so, still not seeing why everyone is so full of outrage over this…  

Edited January 11, 2023 by SufferInSilence

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

This is my fundamental problem with the proposal. There's an extremely small amount of people that aren't going to move the needle to grow the sport that CAN play in Open already. 

 

They CAN play, just not competitively without major scoring. The guns fit better into CO than open just the rules don't allow it. Like others have said, a year or two under provisional rules may show there is really no difference in CO and LO from a performance standpoint and instead of making LO a full division we'll just change the rules for CO. A provisional division gives us a way to collect real world data to decide what should be done.

 

People said the same thing about CO, at the time they could also compete in Open. It now seems clear creating CO was a step in the right direction. 

[motosapiens]

32 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

This is my fundamental problem with the proposal. There's an extremely small amount of people that aren't going to move the needle to grow the sport that CAN play in Open already. 

i think basing a decision on growing the sport is probably the wrong approach. A more practical demand-based approach would be to assess whether people are buying guns that don't fit into CO, and using them for defense, carry, even plinking etc..... The sport's equipment imho should at least be somewhat reflective of what is actually popular in the marketplace. Suggesting that they can already play in open is a bit silly, like saying Limited could just be rolled into open.

[SufferInSilence]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

They CAN play, just not competitively without major scoring. The guns fit better into CO than open just the rules don't allow it. Like others have said, a year or two under provisional rules may show there is really no difference in CO and LO from a performance standpoint and instead of making LO a full division we'll just change the rules for CO. A provisional division gives us a way to collect real world data to decide what should be done.

 

People said the same thing about CO, at the time they could also compete in Open. It now seems clear creating CO was a step in the right direction. 

Well said! 
mat least let the provisional period run its course before killing it with no research.  
 

And to what your saying a few good options: 

- do away with PF scoring. 
- make it 135pf at a minimum or whatever you “want” to “safely” operate your gun if choice.  
- SAO in CO and everyone have the “option” of running hammer back/safety on.  
 

USPSA has always been about pushing boundaries and exploring choices (ex: PCC, early days of Open).  
Don’t let a lil hammer back action be the end of the world.   

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, SufferInSilence said:

And to what your saying a few good options: 

- do away with PF scoring. 

this is the most terrible idea that has ever been posted in this forum. I understand the appeal to people who don't have the skills to shoot major pf, but I think those people should just shoot minor and be happy. There are plenty of divisions where minor is competitive, no need to take major away from the people who enjoy it.

 

Killing major would be like killing the 450 division in motocross just because kids and noobs feel safer on 250's.

[shred]

Anyone that says "they can just shoot in Open" for whatever is asking to just delete ALL the divisions.

 

Because they can all shoot in Open (except PCC, and who cares about that )

 

That was how it was for the first 20 years "all guns compete together equally".

[RJH]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 The sport's equipment imho should at least be somewhat reflective of what is actually popular in the marketplace.

 

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

this is the most terrible idea that has ever been posted in this forum. I understand the appeal to people who don't have the skills to shoot major pf, but I think those people should just shoot minor and be happy. There are plenty of divisions where minor is competitive, no need to take major away from the people who enjoy it.

 

 

The first quote  is why major should die. 

 

 

 

As a guy who prefers to shoot major, and was vehemently against doing away with major, I finally come to the realization that trying to keep a dying caliber around just because I like it doesn't actually help the sport at all. A few years back there were multiple low-cost options in 40 cal that could actually be competitive in limited. Now there are basically none other than a glock 35. And all I mean by being competitive in limited is capacity of 19 or more rounds of 40 ammo. You had guns like the glock 35, m&p, xdms, edges, eagles, paras, etc. Now you have a glock 35, a rock island, or a custom gun, maybe a CZ. 40 is dead in the free market and having a division that clings onto it is kind of silly.

 

I know you will bring up that your agency just bought some 40 caliber pistols, and that's good, but 45 ACP outsells 40. It would be dumb to have a division built around 45 ACP, just like it's now dumb to have one built around 40

 

 

So here I am, a guy that prefers major, has a limited gun in 40, carries a 40 caliber pistol every day, but even I can see that having a division that basically requires 40 caliber to be competitive is dumb and past its time.

 

This is why I think USPSA should just rip the Band-Aid off and go with minor only. Or at worst say in 3 years all divisions are going to be minor only, except maybe low cap that is 10 minor eight major lol. That would give everybody time to wear out their major gun, order a minor gun, or have their major gun converted to 9 mil.

 

I know fudds won't like it, but it's where we're going to end up anyway. And not admitting it is just throwing good money after bad

 

 

[motosapiens]

29 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

The first quote  is why major should die. 

 

 

 

As a guy who prefers to shoot major, and was vehemently against doing away with major, I finally come to the realization that trying to keep a dying caliber around just because I like it doesn't actually help the sport at all. A few years back there were multiple low-cost options in 40 cal that could actually be competitive in limited. Now there are basically none other than a glock 35. And all I mean by being competitive in limited is capacity of 19 or more rounds of 40 ammo. You had guns like the glock 35, m&p, xdms, edges, eagles, paras, etc. Now you have a glock 35, a rock island, or a custom gun, maybe a CZ. 40 is dead in the free market and having a division that clings onto it is kind of silly.

looking at online retailers, I see lots of 40's from glock, s&w, taurus, h&k, springfield and beretta, as well as hi-point and cz. I think the death of 40 is still a long long long ways away. I do see that sig is no longer advertising .40 to the public tho, even tho they are selling them to LE agencies, and I see some available at retailers.

 

we have plenty of divisions where minor guns are competitive. I don't see any reason to instantly obsolete millions of $$ worth of guns that people already own. You do make a reasonable argument for not introducing new major divisions however. I understand that people in general are getting weaker and whinier, so I can see where this argument isn't going to go away, along with kids and noobs arguing to get rid of the 450 class in motocross.

Edited January 11, 2023 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

I don't think 40 is quite dead yet, I do think it's possible Limited will be on life support in a few years and maybe we'll need to think about changes. I don't really want to see major gone, even if I don't want to shoot it anymore. It really changes how you need to approach a stage and I think that makes it interesting. 

 

I would certainly rather see major go away before we lower the PF to make major as some Open shooters are requesting now. I don't care if your 9 major gun blows up, if it's not safe we shouldn't allow 9 to make major. Lowering the PF is just dumbing down the division. 

 

Now raising minor I may be able to get behind. Maybe 130 to 135. We should be in the neighborhood of factory ammo. It's funny to me that we as competitors like to talk about how we're the best shooters but so many of us are loading super soft ammo and shooting it out of +50 oz guns while bragging about flattness and splits. 

[Balakay]

49 minutes ago, shred said:

Anyone that says "they can just shoot in Open" for whatever is asking to just delete ALL the divisions.

 

Because they can all shoot in Open (except PCC, and who cares about that )

 

That was how it was for the first 20 years "all guns compete together equally".

But a "sport" that changes it ruleset capriciously will eventually cease to be a sport.  It will become a repositiory for a bunch of new gun owners with shiny new toys to play outside and collect participation swag.. 

 

IDGAF if this becomes a division or not but with all the pontification about plastic=2011, magwells don't matter if you practice and DA/SA =SAO, just make a minor PF, slide mounted optic, uncompensated division and lump everything in this together. It would save a lot of Internet bandwith

[RJH]

15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

looking at online retailers, I see lots of 40's from glock, s&w, taurus, h&k, springfield and beretta, as well as hi-point and cz. I think the death of 40 is still a long long long ways away. I do see that sig is no longer advertising .40 to the public tho, even tho they are selling them to LE agencies, and I see some available at retailers.

 

Funny thing about Smith & wesson, is they list a 40 but you click on 40 and it takes you to a 9. Springfield has the XD series which only holds 16 rounds with 140s, the M's are no longer made in 40. Beretta may offer one of their other guns, but the 96 is the same boat as the XD and is capacity limited when 40 cal is used, if they actually even still make it. Phil S said the other day that the only guns that sig made are nines, tens, and 380s. He would probably know. Taurus, come on now LOL. In all my years of shooting USPSA I think I've seen about three HKs, so I don't actually know what the hell they make so maybe you're right there, but I don't know. High point yeah, high point. CZ and Glock I did mention as actually make a 40 caliber gun that is competitive.

 

You should really hunt around on Smith & Wesson's website and see if they even make a 40 for sure. Especially one that would be anywhere near viable in limited. They invented the cartridge and I don't think they still make a gun in that caliber 

15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

we have plenty of divisions where minor guns are competitive. I don't see any reason to instantly obsolete millions of $$ worth of guns that people already own. 

 

Don't have to instantly obsolete them, that's why I said 3 years or some other arbitrary number. End results going to be the same

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

They CAN play, just not competitively without major scoring. The guns fit better into CO than open just the rules don't allow it. Like others have said, a year or two under provisional rules may show there is really no difference in CO and LO from a performance standpoint and instead of making LO a full division we'll just change the rules for CO. A provisional division gives us a way to collect real world data to decide what should be done.

 

People said the same thing about CO, at the time they could also compete in Open. It now seems clear creating CO was a step in the right direction. 

 

Yes, Yes, and Yes.  

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Yes, Yes, and Yes.  

 

It's funny how the tables turn right? 

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

They CAN play, just not competitively without major scoring.

That's the other thing, new shooters aren't competitive no matter the division. 

[Boomstick303]

Can we stop conflating the terms playing and competing?  

 

Can you shoot a minor 2011 (or any minor gun for that matter) in open?  Yes you can, but realistically you are just playing, not competing.

 

Can you compete in Open shooting a Minor gun?  No, not really, because an Open gun set up correctly is a completely different Beast.  And no, I do not think Nils could win Open Nationals shooting Minor.  If you think so you are be seriously disingenuous.  

 

I really do not understand there bitching about LO.  Try it out as a provisional.  Use the data and make the appropriate moves that make sense in the future.  Numbers will tell you if it can stand on its own, or if needs to be deleted.  

Edited January 11, 2023 by Boomstick303

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

Can we stop conflating the terms playing and competing?  

 

 

I wish we would but 90% of those playing at this sport think they are competing, but would actually benefit from the realization that for them its play. 

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I wish we would but 90% of those playing at this sport think they are competing, but would actually benefit from the realization that for them its play. 

 

Well, the only thing I can disagree with in this statement is that I think your number is a little low. I'm going to go with 97% of us are playing, whether we want to be or not 

 

 

Also, I will gladly shoot heads up if everybody else will and we can go back to no divisions, but I bet that's not a popular subject LOL

Edited January 11, 2023 by RJH

[MikeBurgess]

4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Can we stop conflating the terms playing and competing?  

 

Can you shoot a minor 2011 (or any minor gun for that matter) in open?  Yes you can, but realistically you are just playing, not competing.

 

The real answer is this

If someone is a competitor they give ZERO Fs if a 2011 fits in CO or Limited or Open or PCC because they are getting equipment that fits the division they want to compete in. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I wish we would but 90% of those playing at this sport think they are competing, but would actually benefit from the realization that for them its play. 

 

I can agree with this, but I do not think applies to those in the conversation. 

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Anyone that says "they can just shoot in Open" for whatever is asking to just delete ALL the divisions.

 

Because they can all shoot in Open (except PCC, and who cares about that )

 

That was how it was for the first 20 years "all guns compete together equally".

I'm not asking to delete ALL divisions, just Lim 10 for now. 

Getting back to the real question, how does this grow the sport?

Specifically I'm asking how this either reduces turnover or increases new memberships rates to overcome expiration without renewing. Cannibalizing a division for participating in LO is not growing the sport. Kind of like guys going from Open to PCC to win a fantasy division at their local club isn't growth. 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

If someone is a competitor they give ZERO Fs if a 2011 fits in CO or Limited or Open

 

If someone is a true competitor they know at the top it does not matter what gun is used.  They know they have to put in the work to be on top.  

 

There should be a place for Minor SA gun to participate and be competitive.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

That's the other thing, new shooters aren't competitive no matter the division. 

 

True but the chances of someone sticking around long enough to get good drop if they can't use the gun they like. 

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

I can agree with this, but I do not think applies to those in the conversation. 

Oh it 100% does 

 

I have at times in my time here been a competitor, but that was short lived, I spent several years playing, took it seriously for about 2 and went back to playing.