Limited Optics

[BritinUSA]

The fault line rules are actually a terrific aid for stage design. In USPSA if you want to prevent a competitor from going someplace it requires a WALL,  which can restrict RO (and spectator) visibility of the stage.

 

in IPSC you just through some foot fault lines on the ground and accomplish the same thing.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

In USPSA if you want to prevent a competitor from going someplace it requires a WALL,  which can restrict RO (and spectator) visibility of the stage.

 

in IPSC you just through some foot fault lines on the ground and accomplish the same thing.

 

I get that, but I feel it limits freestyle. 

 

 

If as range Master you are really worried about competitor movement etc you can always use off limits lines

[deerslayer]

Great scratch major for 140 pf.  Make not only guns obsolete, but also powder.  

[YVK]

2 hours ago, deerslayer said:

Great scratch major for 140 pf.  Make not only guns obsolete, but also powder.  

 

It makes shooters who don't reload obsolete. Almost anything one can buy off the shelf makes 125 from a 4.5+ inch barrel. 140, not so much.

 

[shred]

6 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

The fault line rules are actually a terrific aid for stage design. In USPSA if you want to prevent a competitor from going someplace it requires a WALL,  which can restrict RO (and spectator) visibility of the stage.

 

in IPSC you just through some foot fault lines on the ground and accomplish the same thing.

Except for the stage at the IPSC World Shoot a month ago where you were allowed to jump between two parts of the shooting area as long as you didn't touch down outside it...   Some short people not real happy about that.

 

[shred]

35 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

It makes shooters who don't reload obsolete. Almost anything one can buy off the shelf makes 125 from a 4.5+ inch barrel. 140, not so much.

 

Obviously 140 isn't a hard and fast number until you work out where typical factory ammo is and use that.  125 PF is silly.  You have to buy special 'competition' ammo or load extra-light to get there for the most part.  Winchester white box is way over 125.

 

[YVK]

55 minutes ago, shred said:

Obviously 140 isn't a hard and fast number until you work out where typical factory ammo is and use that.  125 PF is silly.  You have to buy special 'competition' ammo or load extra-light to get there for the most part.  Winchester white box is way over 125.

 

 

I only shoot factory ammo and done so for years. I am well aware of what pf which ammo makes out of Stock 2 and Shadow 2. 115 gr American Eagle is rarely over 134. 124 and 147 AE is usually at 140 +/- 2; too close to be relied on to make the chrono if cutoff was 140. Same for 115 Lawman. 115 PMC barely over 125. 124 PMC around 132. The "official USPSA" 150 Syntech will not get you over 140. I can go on. It is 140 pf that would require buying special 9 mm loads. 125 pf is fine. What's silly is letting guns weigh 56 oz in minor pf divisions.

Edited January 2, 2023 by YVK
typo

[deerslayer]

It’s been a while since I chronographed it, but years ago I remember Remington UMC being iffy to reliably make minor in 4” guns.  I don’t know where non-reloaders would be expected to find reliable 140+ pf factory ammo.  WWB 115 would chronograph about 138 in my gen 3 G34, and it was the fastest 9mm I’ve ever owned. 
 

The fast burn rate powders often used to load 170 or 175 pf .40 with 180 and 200 grain bullets are often coincidentally also used to load 130 pf 9mm.  Pushing some of these fast burning powders to 145 pf will be problematic.  So some .40 major fans as well as 130-135 pf 9mm handloaders could have large stashes of powder they can no longer use for USPSA ammo.  And who knows if they could find any powder more suitable for hotter ammo. 
 

Monkeying with pf in the middle of an ammo/component crunch with no end in sight is a stupid idea.  

Edited January 2, 2023 by deerslayer

[Johnny_Chimpo]

35 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

I only shoot factory ammo and done so for years. I am well aware of what pf which ammo makes out of Stock 2 and Shadow 2. 115 gr American Eagle is rarely over 134. 124 and 127 AE is usually at 140 +/- 2; too close to be relied on to make the chrono if cutoff was 140. Same for 115 Lawman. 115 PMC barely over 125. 124 PMC around 132. The "official USPSA" 150 Syntech will not get you over 140. I can go on. It is 140 pf that would require buying special 9 mm loads. 125 pf is fine. What silly is letting guns weigh 56 oz in minor pf divisions.

 

100%

 

140 PF 9 mm off the shelf ammo is mostly a fantasy unless you start buying +P loads.

 

Where do people come up with stuff like this?

Edited January 2, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[deerslayer]

3 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

100%

 

140 PF 9 mm off the shelf ammo is mostly a fantasy unless you start buying +P loads.

 

Where do people come up with stuff like this?

A few months ago I said one reason I didn’t want 2011s in CO was their next argument would be lowering pf.  I was told I was being ridiculous, but here we are. 

[BritinUSA]

57 minutes ago, shred said:

Except for the stage at the IPSC World Shoot a month ago where you were allowed to jump between two parts of the shooting area as long as you didn't touch down outside it...   Some short people not real happy about that.

My first thought is the would run afoul of:

Quote

2.2.1.4 Fault Lines must be fixed firmly in place, they must rise at least 2 centimeters above ground level, they should be constructed of wood or other rigid materials, and they should be of a consistent color (preferably red), at every COF in a match. Unless used in a continuous manner to define the boundary of a general shooting area, fault lines must be a minimum of 1.5 meters in length, but they are deemed to extend to infinity (also see Rule 4.4.1).

 

[MHicks]

The 140pf 9mm isn't one of the proposals. Just opinions of would some would like to see. It's not going to happen. Unless I missed something?  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

Per Mr. Latham

“The problem is if we now consider the 9x19 round to be the standard and sufficient it should be at a power level commonly encountered. Which is not 125. 125 is silly. 

I’d be on board with a single PF if it were relative to the ammo used for duty or defense. 140-150 is more appropriate.”

 

Juat a quick browse through ammo company websites and the only two range/training loads that I could quickly find that make his idea of PF are American Eagle 147 and Speer Lawman 147.

 

140+ PF is a non-starter.  130 - 135 is realistic.

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 minutes ago, MHicks said:

The 140pf 9mm isn't one of the proposals. Just opinions of would some would like to see. It's not going to happen. Unless I missed something?  

 

Correct.  But it was a comment made by one of the sport's legends and repeated here so it's being challenged.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[deerslayer]

3 minutes ago, MHicks said:

The 140pf 9mm isn't one of the proposals. Just opinions of would some would like to see. It's not going to happen. Unless I missed something?  

When we have pro shooters advocating for killing major and they are also representatives of  gun manufacturers that could benefit from such rule changes, nothing would surprise me.  

[YVK]

15 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

When we have pro shooters advocating for killing major and they are also representatives of  gun manufacturers that could benefit from such rule changes, nothing would surprise me.  

 

I thought it was funny that he also took the time to protest their Spectre Comp being reclassified as a compensator, even though they themselves named it a Spectre Comp.  Based on my, admittedly limited, experience with it I think it is a gimmick but I did find it entertaining to read. 

[MHicks]

I didn't catch that he was referencing a single 140 pf eliminating major.

[RJH]

While I don't support the 140 pf idea, my carryops gun made 141 pf with 115 grain wwb. My LO gun has a shorter barrel though so I would expect 135 of out of it

[RJH]

7 hours ago, YVK said:

 

I thought it was funny that he also took the time to protest their Spectre Comp being reclassified as a compensator, even though they themselves named it a Spectre Comp.  Based on my, admittedly limited, experience with it I think it is a gimmick but I did find it entertaining to read. 

 

I noticed that comp part too. 

 

Other than that I think he was pretty much correct, though. Also I figure as a high end shooter, former USPSA president, and now in the gun industry, he would unique perspective that might be worth considering

 

 

[vluc]

23 hours ago, RJH said:

Don't know if any of y'all do Facebook at all, but Phil S made a post on this subject and Rob L commented on it. Both are worth a read imo

Link?

 

sorry, late to the party.

Edited January 2, 2023 by vluc

[RJH]

1 minute ago, vluc said:

Link?

 

There's a link a few posts down from the post you quoted. Another poster on here also copied and pasted it

[echotango]

4 minutes ago, vluc said:

Link?

https://www.facebook.com/straightersolutions/posts/pfbid02snoMvPSWw7XKZwHHnAQuVrnBdXk1zP6Pw5EYkSMhxP7se69ukFuDKAh1ddKWJZWkl

[George16]

3 minutes ago, vluc said:

Link?

 

 

Phil Strader

13h  · 

I just sent these two emails to the USPSA BOD and DNROI. Happy New Year! 

Hello all,

I hope that you all will take a few minutes to hear my opinions about everything that is happening with the rule changes. There are too many to address, but I will cover two that should be considered. 

The BOD has gotten a reputation of not listening to its members, but this reputation has been perpetrated by the very vocal 5%, IMO. I still want to believe that the decisions that are being made by the BOD are for the betterment of the sport and the industry more so than at the whims of 1500 very vocal and never satisfied members. 

 

With that said, in the case of adding Limited Optics, I understand where a lot of this pressure is coming from, as several representatives of companies that would benefit from this have reached out to me. Adding yet another division is NOT the answer. IDPA should be a perfect example of what not to do with countless divisions that confuse potential new shooters. The days of SAO being a significant (if any) advantage over custom striker or DA/SA pistols are over. The last 3 winners of the Limited Division championship won with STRIKER pistols…the Open National Championship was nearly won with a Beretta. With that said, I would suggest that we stop believing that there’s enough of an advantage to create a division just for it.

The key to new membership and growth is to piss off a small number of existing members (like me). Here are my suggestions to recalibrate USPSA and to make it accommodating and less confusing for more new shooters:

 

OPEN

- Keep as-is. I would normally suggest making this minor only, but that wouldn’t be necessary if the other changes below are met.

LIMITED

- Keep as-is, but make it minor only. Production shooters who want higher capacity could compete here without dealing with 40SW.

OPTICS

- Carry Optics as is, but allow magwells and Allow single-action pistols. I was initially against this, but the SAO advantage is so minimal, that it wouldn’t make a difference…as Nils, Bob Vogel, Luke Cao, Mason Lane, and others will prove.

CLASSIC

- 45oz weight limit. Production, Single Stack, and Revolvers allowed. Magwells allowed for single stack only. Minor - 10rd mags. Major - 8rd mags. All revolvers scored as MAJOR even with 125PF.

Yes, USPSA members (like me) with a LOT of 40SW’s would not be happy, but we’re not going to shoot IDPA in protest. If we’ve invested in Limited equipment, we’re invested in the organization. We will either shoot up our major ammo, load minor, or shoot whatever 9mm production or 3-gun pistol we have in the new Limited.

 

I know this is a radical change, but simpler is better. This would keep your matches from being watered down (like Production Optics Light at World Shoot).

If you’ve made it this far in this message, thank you for reading and thank you for serving USPSA I know what’s involved, and sometimes the decisions that need to be made aren’t easy.

Take care, and Happy New Year,

Sorry, I forgot the 2nd thing.

If USPSA had not allowed compensators, extended basepads, or red-dot sights in the early days of competitive shooting, I wonder what would’ve happened to the sport? USPSA has always been the proving ground for new products, new technology, and better performing equipment, but it appears that this has changed.

Changing the compensator definition is a direct attack on that very ingenuity that made USPSA what it is today. Sig Sauer found a way to make a pistol shoot flatter and faster without the use of a compensator through superior technology and end-user creativity. Why is this being punished?? The P365 Spectre Comp and XMacro have been our best selling pistols to date, and customers want more.

 

I would strongly suggest that USPSA and the BOD reconsider this re-definition of a compensator. Please give the firearms industry the freedom to improve the products that will continue to grow our end-user base and the organization of USPSA.

Phil Strader

 

Rob Leatham's Response

 

Some of what Phil says I’d agree with. Some not. 

The difference between a 59 oz striker fired 125 pf gun and a 1911 style firing mechanism 59 oz 125 pf gun is insignificant. 

I believe porting and venting of gasses in any manner constitutes compensating. 

Apply the usage to whatever division you like. There are sensible arguments to be made for and against. 

That the SS division is now the lightest weight limit and most compact division is silly. 

We no longer have a practical division. 

The 125 PF thing is a holdover from a time when we wanted .38 special revolvers of questionable strength to be able to make minor. 

I still believe in power in the real world.

 

The problem is if we now consider the 9x19 round to be the standard and sufficient it should be at a power level commonly encountered. Which is not 125. 125 is silly. 

I’d be on board with a single PF if it were relative to the ammo used for duty or defense. 140-150 is more appropriate. 

However as we turn the sport more and more into a video game rather than a martial skills training and testing ground, I’m sure the masses will feel different. 

There are those that think we should shoot .22’s. 

Either way, Phil Strader should die….

 

[vluc]

Yeah, what I get for coming late and picking up where I left off.

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, YVK said:

What's silly is letting guns weigh 56 oz in minor pf divisions.

meh.... from my experience a gun that heavy is a competitive disadvantage. I'm happy to let people handicap themselves.