9mm vs Short Colt. ICORE,

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, ysrracer said:

As far as shooting a 7-shot gun you can, but you're competing against 8-shot guns, not 6.

Yeh got that far in the rules,, no biggy.  Probably wont even bother with the Short colt, as everything is still boxed up , garage gets snow in it, and I dont even have a work bench set up.

 

[varminter22]

6 hours ago, ysrracer said:

I've got both a 929 and a 627.

 

Both barrels slugged at .357. In my 627 I run a .358 160 Bayou Bullet in front of 3gr of Clays (not universal, not international) in a Starline .38 Short Colt case.

 

It took a while to get my 929 to run right. I finally settled on .358 147gr bullet. In a Federal case, with a .035 mom clip.

 

99.99% of the time I shoot my 627.

 

 

I've never understood how/why S&W let the M929 9mm leave the factory with .357" barrels.  

[ysrracer]

12 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

I've never understood how/why S&W let the M929 9mm leave the factory with .357" barrels.  

It's a design feature, not a flaw.

[pskys2]

12 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Yeh got that far in the rules,, no biggy.  Probably wont even bother with the Short colt, as everything is still boxed up , garage gets snow in it, and I dont even have a work bench set up.

 

From what I'm hearing the SynTech Federal 9mm PCC ammo is a RN and good in a Revolver.

As for the 7 shot, I come home with the majority of my moonclips with 2 rounds left in the 8 rounder.

[ysrracer]

23 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

From what I'm hearing the SynTech Federal 9mm PCC ammo is a RN and good in a Revolver.

As for the 7 shot, I come home with the majority of my moonclips with 2 rounds left in the 8 rounder.

 

If you come home with two rounds left in your moons, that means the course designer did a good job of keeping it six round neutrall.

 

Some do some don't. 

 

As I said, with a 7 round gun you're competing against 8-shot guns, not 6.

[Mcfoto]

54 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

 

If you come home with two rounds left in your moons, that means the course designer did a good job of keeping it six round neutrall.

 

Some do some don't. 

 

As I said, with a 7 round gun you're competing against 8-shot guns, not 6.

As I finish my first season as an ICORE MD, this is a topic that I’m still struggling with. When I started, my Limited 8 banger had me designing 8 shot arrays. We have a fair number of L6’s and the newbs who show up with a classic. As an exercise, I went back to classic and saw what a PIA my stages were for 6 bangers. Now I’m not totally 6 shot neutral but strive to give the 8 bangers choices that might result in less reloading while minimal standing reloads for the 6’s. Of course, to keep things interesting I like to throw an odd number array in there to get everyone scheming…

 

to the OP, I would stage plan a 7 shot as a 6 shot with a makeup available on the unlimited stages.

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, ysrracer said:

 

If you come home with two rounds left in your moons, that means the course designer did a good job of keeping it six round neutrall.

 

Some do some don't. 

 

As I said, with a 7 round gun you're competing against 8-shot guns, not 6.

probably more like competing against people that have practiced reloading.  

[varminter22]

16 hours ago, ysrracer said:

It's a design feature, not a flaw.

Funny that when the 929 was introduced, and to this day, I don't recall S&W saying, "Check out our wonderful new 929 9mm revolver with a 38 barrel."  

[pskys2]

7 hours ago, Mcfoto said:

As I finish my first season as an ICORE MD, this is a topic that I’m still struggling with. When I started, my Limited 8 banger had me designing 8 shot arrays. We have a fair number of L6’s and the newbs who show up with a classic. As an exercise, I went back to classic and saw what a PIA my stages were for 6 bangers. Now I’m not totally 6 shot neutral but strive to give the 8 bangers choices that might result in less reloading while minimal standing reloads for the 6’s. Of course, to keep things interesting I like to throw an odd number array in there to get everyone scheming…

 

to the OP, I would stage plan a 7 shot as a 6 shot with a makeup available on the unlimited stages.

When I get the urge to deviate from the 6 shot array paradigm, I like to make a COF 6 shot per position with an extra available target that allows one to eliminate a position at some point, but with effort like having an awkward position, tight shot, having to remember it or maybe a No Shoot to make those extra's more difficult.  

What I don't like to do in ICORE is make a COF 8 shots from each position.  I'd rather put up 6 shot per position as it makes it a shooting test, instead of a reloading test for L6 & Classic and changes nothing for the Limited & Open Divisions.  

The trick is to make it interesting though.

[mchapman]

8 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

When I get the urge to deviate from the 6 shot array paradigm, I like to make a COF 6 shot per position with an extra available target that allows one to eliminate a position at some point, but with effort like having an awkward position, tight shot, having to remember it or maybe a No Shoot to make those extra's more difficult.  

What I don't like to do in ICORE is make a COF 8 shots from each position.  I'd rather put up 6 shot per position as it makes it a shooting test, instead of a reloading test for L6 & Classic and changes nothing for the Limited & Open Divisions.  

The trick is to make it interesting though.

I would throw in some 9 shot arrays, to have everyone have to reload, except the 2 or 3 guys using 32 cal. 10 shot guns.

[MWP]

4 hours ago, varminter22 said:

Funny that when the 929 was introduced, and to this day, I don't recall S&W saying, "Check out our wonderful new 929 9mm revolver with a 38 barrel."  

If I remember correctly, .355 9mm barrel was in their advertising when it came out. 
 

Unfortunately the factory is only a starting point in making a really good Smith revo, not a finished product. 

[testosterone]

22 hours ago, Joe4d said:

practiced reloading

Not sure what your thinking here is.  If competing with a revolver a huge part of it is a good reload, the shorter the course...eg...stand a shoot 6 reload 6...the reload is like  30-40% of it.  There is no getting around it.

[testosterone]

12 hours ago, MWP said:

Unfortunately the factory is only a starting point in making a really good Smith revo, not a finished product. 

Its like a rough fabbed but unfitted, no lights, unaligned bondo'd muscle car basically.   It runs and drives...basically...

[testosterone]

On 11/15/2022 at 9:50 AM, pskys2 said:

From what I'm hearing the SynTech Federal 9mm PCC ammo is a RN and good in a Revolver.

As for the 7 shot, I come home with the majority of my moonclips with 2 rounds left in the 8 rounder.

Pcc works but its insanely over pf, if that matters....

[superdude]

19 hours ago, varminter22 said:

Funny that when the 929 was introduced, and to this day, I don't recall S&W saying, "Check out our wonderful new 929 9mm revolver with a 38 barrel."  

 

9mm and 38/357 have the exact same SAAMI barrel specs: groove diameter of 0.355" + 0.004". So any barrel with a groove diameter between 0.355" to 0.359" is within spec for both calibers. 

 

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

 

[ysrracer]

26 minutes ago, superdude said:

 

9mm and 38/357 have the exact same SAAMI barrel specs: groove diameter of 0.355" + 0.004". So any barrel with a groove diameter between 0.355" to 0.359" is within spec for both calibers. 

 

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

 

True, but most bullets for 9mm are .355/.356 where as most .38 bullets are .357/.358.

 

My 929 wouldn't shoot factory ammo very well. Poor accuracy and lots of failures to fire.

[pskys2]

19 hours ago, mchapman said:

I would throw in some 9 shot arrays, to have everyone have to reload, except the 2 or 3 guys using 32 cal. 10 shot guns.

Yep, that too.

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, testosterone said:

Pcc works but its insanely over pf, if that matters....

Yep, and price too.  If I was going the facotry route first issue availabliity, second issue reliablility, close third accuracy and last PF.

[MikeBurgess]

20 hours ago, mchapman said:

I would throw in some 9 shot arrays, to have everyone have to reload, except the 2 or 3 guys using 32 cal. 10 shot guns.

I'm not sure there is more than one 10 shot 32 out there, I remember seeing pictures of it and IIRC a statement from the guy that built it sayin never again.

[varminter22]

41 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I'm not sure there is more than one 10 shot 32 out there, I remember seeing pictures of it and IIRC a statement from the guy that built it sayin never again.

One is a 10-shot built on a S&W N frame.  And one is a 9-shot built on an Astra frame.  

 

I've seen 'em and drooled over 'em!  

[ysrracer]

2 hours ago, varminter22 said:

One is a 10-shot built on a S&W N frame.  And one is a 9-shot built on an Astra frame.  

 

I've seen 'em and drooled over 'em!  

 

Yeah, my buddy "the grey ghost" has the 10 shot. It's pretty cool.

 

Just about every part on it is custom.

[varminter22]

5 hours ago, superdude said:

 

9mm and 38/357 have the exact same SAAMI barrel specs: groove diameter of 0.355" + 0.004". So any barrel with a groove diameter between 0.355" to 0.359" is within spec for both calibers. 

 

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

 

Something doesn't seem right about that.  

 

Bownell's (Nominal Barrel Groove Diameters | Top Rated Supplier of Firearm Reloading Equipment, Supplies, and Tools - Colt (brownells.com) says:  

 

Nominal Barrel Groove Diameters:

9mm Luger	.354"
.38 Special/.357	.357"

 

If 9mm and .38 barrels are the exact same diameter as you say, why are [the vast majority of] 9mm bullets .355"/.356" and .38 Spec bullets .357"/358"?  

 

What am I missing?

[superdude]

29 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

Something doesn't seem right about that.  

 

Bownell's (Nominal Barrel Groove Diameters | Top Rated Supplier of Firearm Reloading Equipment, Supplies, and Tools - Colt (brownells.com) says:  

 

Nominal Barrel Groove Diameters:

9mm Luger	.354"
.38 Special/.357	.357"

 

If 9mm and .38 barrels are the exact same diameter as you say, why are [the vast majority of] 9mm bullets .355"/.356" and .38 Spec bullets .357"/358"?  

 

What am I missing?

 

 

I don't know where Brownells is getting their information, but it is not consistent with SAAMI. SAAMI is the industry standards institute, not Brownells.

 

The bullets are different because their dimensions are also defined by SAAMI (and tradition). See the information in the Link I posted.

9mm bullets = .3555 - .003.   

38/357 = jacketed = .3580 -.003; lead = .3590-.003

 

I've slugged many 9mm and 38/357 barrels and don't find a difference between them. Of the over a dozen 9mm barrels I've slugged, only 2 of them were less than .356".

 

[ysrracer]

I use .358 coated bullets in everything. 

 

THIS IS NOT LOADING ADVICE.

[testosterone]

1 hour ago, superdude said:

 over a dozen 9mm barrels I've slugged, only 2 of them were less than .356".

 

I never bothered trying to slug one because i dont have the right caliper to measure properly.

 

I do know the barrel i bought from mwp is a different universe accuracy wise compared to the factory 929 barrel, so much so I ordered another couple feet of it to rebarrel all my 929's...it is a proper 355 as ordered.