9mm vs Short Colt. ICORE,

[testosterone]

7 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I'm not sure there is more than one 10 shot 32 out there, I remember seeing pictures of it and IIRC a statement from the guy that built it sayin never again.

Tragic.  He has all the prints and some lawyer told him it was a liability....

[varminter22]

2 hours ago, superdude said:

 

 

I don't know where Brownells is getting their information, but it is not consistent with SAAMI. SAAMI is the industry standards institute, not Brownells.

 

The bullets are different because their dimensions are also defined by SAAMI (and tradition). See the information in the Link I posted.

9mm bullets = .3555 - .003.   

38/357 = jacketed = .3580 -.003; lead = .3590-.003

 

I've slugged many 9mm and 38/357 barrels and don't find a difference between them. Of the over a dozen 9mm barrels I've slugged, only 2 of them were less than .356".

 

Okay.  I guess.  But I sure don't understand.  

[superdude]

6 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

Okay.  I guess.  But I sure don't understand.  

 

These ammo standards were established long before most of us were born. The 9mm and 38 Special were created around 1900, give or take. At some point in the past someone decided that such-and-such was going to be dimension X, and that other thingy would be dimension Y. We're left to sort stuff out. But SAAMI is the bible in the USA, and CIP is the bible for the rest of the world. They define the standards, and companies build their products around them. 

[varminter22]

12 minutes ago, superdude said:

 

These ammo standards were established long before most of us were born. The 9mm and 38 Special were created around 1900, give or take. At some point in the past someone decided that such-and-such was going to be dimension X, and that other thingy would be dimension Y. We're left to sort stuff out. But SAAMI is the bible in the USA, and CIP is the bible for the rest of the world. They define the standards, and companies build their products around them. 

I understand that!  

 

But if that is true (and I saw your SAAMI ref), why aren't ammo manufactures (and us handloaders) loading all .38 Spec/.357 Mag/etc ammo with .355"/.356" bullets?  

 

I also understand that barrels can and do vary, but they should be with the .0004" or .0005" tolerance, correct?  And barrels can vary a little in bullet preference.  But a .358" bullet in a .3546" barrel??  Interesting.  

 

Said another way:  Since you said "SAAMI defines the standards, and companies build their products around them" why wouldn't the standard bullet diameter for both calibers be .355"/.356"? 

Edited November 17, 2022 by varminter22

[superdude]

1 minute ago, varminter22 said:

I understand that!  

 

But if that is true (and I saw your SAAMI ref), why aren't ammo manufactures (and us handloaders) loading all .38 Spec/.357 Mag/etc ammo with .355"/.356" bullets?  

 

I also understand that barrels can and do vary, but they should be with the .0004" or .0005" tolerance, correct?  And barrels can vary a little in bullet preference.  But a .358" bullet in a .3546" barrel??  Interesting.  

 

Ammo manufacturers are making their 38/357 bullets according to SAAMI specs for that caliber.

 

You can load 9mm bullets in 38/357 cases, but the cases (and our reloading dies) are designed to fit the presumed .357ish bullets, and smaller bullets will have less, or no neck tension. You can get around it by using an undersize sizing die, if you want. I've done it, and other people have, too. Accuracy with jacketed bullets is fine. Lead might be a different issue and I have not tested that. 

 

You can also use .357/.358 bullets in your 9mm. The issue here is whether they will fit in the chamber, since the brass and chambers are made around SAAMI specs and a 'tight' chamber might not like a .357/.358 bullet.  But, lots of us use these bullets in our 9mm guns without issue. 

 

SAAMI barrel tolerances are +.004, not .0004, so a barrel with a groove diameter from .355 to .359 is within specs.

 

Colt is known for making some of their revolver barrels undersize. I have a Colt Magnum Carry with a .3532" groove diameter. I've not had any issues with the ammo I've fired through it.

 

 

 

 

[varminter22]

22 minutes ago, superdude said:

 

Ammo manufacturers are making their 38/357 bullets according to SAAMI specs for that caliber.

 

You can load 9mm bullets in 38/357 cases, but the cases (and our reloading dies) are designed to fit the presumed .357ish bullets, and smaller bullets will have less, or no neck tension. You can get around it by using an undersize sizing die, if you want. I've done it, and other people have, too. Accuracy with jacketed bullets is fine. Lead might be a different issue and I have not tested that. 

 

You can also use .357/.358 bullets in your 9mm. The issue here is whether they will fit in the chamber, since the brass and chambers are made around SAAMI specs and a 'tight' chamber might not like a .357/.358 bullet.  But, lots of us use these bullets in our 9mm guns without issue. 

 

SAAMI barrel tolerances are +.004, not .0004, so a barrel with a groove diameter from .355 to .359 is within specs.

 

Colt is known for making some of their revolver barrels undersize. I have a Colt Magnum Carry with a .3532" groove diameter. I've not had any issues with the ammo I've fired through it.

 

 

 

 

Still doesn't make sense.  I fully understand you CAN load various sizes.  And some people do.  

 

And no, according the SAAMI specs in the link you provided, it clearly states: 

QUOTE

LAND AND GROOVE DIMENSIONS TO BE WITHIN TOLERANCES THROUGHOUT LENGTH OF BARREL. 

UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED, ALL DIAMETERS +.0005

UNQUOTE

 

That is one half of 1/1000.   So 9mm AND 38/357 barrels (groove dia) "should" be at least .3545" and no larger than .3555" - according to SAAMI specs.  

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by varminter22

[superdude]

11 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

Still doesn't make sense.  

 

And no, according the SAAMI specs in the link you provided, for 9mm it clearly states: 

QUOTE

LAND AND GROOVE DIMENSIONS TO BE WITHIN TOLERANCES THROUGHOUT LENGTH OF BARREL. 

UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED, ALL DIAMETERS +.0005

UNQUOTE

 

That is one half of 1/1000.   So a 9mm barrel "should" be at least .3456" and no larger than .3554" - according to SAAMI specs.  

 

And same .355" except for a .0005" tolerance for .38/.357 - according to SAAMI specs.

 

Ah. You're reading the SAAMI specs for the pressure test barrel (Page 141), which is used for measuring chamber pressure. 

 

The specs for the 9mm cartridge and ammo are on page 27, and for the 38 Spl. are on page 47.

[varminter22]

13 minutes ago, superdude said:

 

Ah. You're reading the SAAMI specs for the pressure test barrel (Page 141), which is used for measuring chamber pressure. 

 

The specs for the 9mm cartridge and ammo are on page 27, and for the 38 Spl. are on page 47.

Ooops.  Thanks.  

 

But then, back to the original question:  Why put .38/.357 barrels on 9mm revolvers.  

 

Geez, I'm confused.  

 

I hope no one thinks this is a peeing contest.  I just dont understand.  

[ysrracer]

9 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

But then, back to the original question:  Why put .38/.357 barrels on 9mm revolvers.  

 

To save money. One barrel, two revolvers.

[superdude]

2 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

Ooops.  Thanks.  

 

But then, back to the original question:  Why put .38/.357 barrels on 9mm revolvers.  

 

Geez, I'm confused.  

 

 

There is no such thing as a 38/357 barrel and a separate 9mm barrel. They both have the exact same specs. 

 

If you buy a 38/357 revolver and the barrel groove diameter measures .355", does that mean it has a 9mm barrel?  No, it doesn't. That's because .355 is within the SAAMI specs for a 38/357 barrel. It's still a 38/357 barrel. 

[varminter22]

3 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

 

To save money. One barrel, two revolvers.

But again, why do most manufacturers (and handloaders that don't slug nor experiment) use the smaller dia bullets in 9mm ammo and the larger in 38/357 ammo? 

 

Before the 929 was introduced, there were other 9mm revolvers (not many, but some) and I don't recall folks complaining about .358" barrels on them.  

[varminter22]

8 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

But again, why do most manufacturers (and handloaders that don't slug nor experiment) use the smaller dia bullets in 9mm ammo and the larger in 38/357 ammo? 

 

Before the 929 was introduced, there were other 9mm revolvers (not many, but some) and I don't recall folks complaining about .358" barrels on them.  

Okeydokey.  

 

I just don't understand why this wasn't a topic among widespead 38/357 shooters before.    .357"/.358" bullets have always been the common bullets.  

 

I've never felt the need to slug barrels or simply try .355" bullets in my M627.  Maybe I should.  

 

But since .355 has been the industy standard for over a century, it still makes no sense to me that many, if not most, of us utilize .358" bullets in a .38!  

 

Oh, and that .004" tolerance of which you mentioned, that surely cannot apply to barrel groove diameter, right?!  IF it does, that would mean a barrel with a .359" groove diameter would be acceptable.  Ugh.  

Edited November 17, 2022 by varminter22

[ysrracer]

1 hour ago, varminter22 said:

But again, why do most manufacturers (and handloaders that don't slug nor experiment) use the smaller dia bullets in 9mm ammo and the larger in 38/357 ammo? 

 

Why do some people use premium gas in low compression engines?

 

Why do some people use low sodium soy sauce?

 

Why do some people order a Big Mac, large fries, and a diet coke?

 

Why do some people order Hawaiian pizza?

[superdude]

6 hours ago, varminter22 said:

I've never felt the need to slug barrels or simply try .355" bullets in my M627.  Maybe I should.  

 

But since .355 has been the industy standard for over a century, it still makes no sense to me that many, if not most, of us utilize .358" bullets in a .38!  

 

Oh, and that .004" tolerance of which you mentioned, that surely cannot apply to barrel groove diameter, right?!  IF it does, that would mean a barrel with a .359" groove diameter would be acceptable.  Ugh.  

 

You're really overthinking this. 

 

The .004 DOES apply to the groove diameter.

Edited November 17, 2022 by superdude

[gargoil66]

FWIW, I have shot powder coated .358 bullets out of my 9mm carbine with absolutely no issues.  And used mixed headstamp brass.  Recoil and report were a bit stronger than 9mm powder coated bullets but they all chambered and all shot.  Performance was pretty good.  Went back to 9mm bullets though.

 

Slugging barrels.  That is not something I would do for fun.  Am piss poor using calipers too so every time I have slugged a barrel I never got the same measurement twice. 

 

GG

[varminter22]

7 hours ago, ysrracer said:

 

Why do some people use premium gas in low compression engines?

 

Why do some people use low sodium soy sauce?

 

Why do some people order a Big Mac, large fries, and a diet coke?

 

Why do some people order Hawaiian pizza?

Apples and oranges.

 

[varminter22]

2 hours ago, superdude said:

 

You're really overthinking this. 

 

The .004 DOES apply to the groove diameter.

I reckon so.  

 

[ysrracer]

23 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

Apples and oranges.

 

How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work?

 

It just does!!!

 

[Joe4d]

8 hours ago, superdude said:

 

There is no such thing as a 38/357 barrel and a separate 9mm barrel. They both have the exact same specs. 

 

If you buy a 38/357 revolver and the barrel groove diameter measures .355", does that mean it has a 9mm barrel?  No, it doesn't. That's because .355 is within the SAAMI specs for a 38/357 barrel. It's still a 38/357 barrel. 

While they both may be within Sammi specs... If the MFG  wants their products to be worth a flip they would hold tolerances tighter than allowed. 

[testosterone]

2 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Am piss poor using calipers too so every time I have slugged a barrel I never got the same measurement twice

 

Not a machinist, you need a vblock to do this measurement properly anyways, no?

[varminter22]

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

 

Not a machinist, you need a vblock to do this measurement properly anyways, no?

Slugging barrel provides the smallest diameter of the barrel.  Better would be an air guage!

[pskys2]

11 hours ago, varminter22 said:

Ooops.  Thanks.  

 

But then, back to the original question:  Why put .38/.357 barrels on 9mm revolvers.  

 

Geez, I'm confused.  

 

I hope no one thinks this is a peeing contest.  I just dont understand.  

Because they had them and didn't want to tool up for new ones?  Bottom Line manufacturing.  Remember most casual shooters won't know the difference between a gun that shoots 2" or 6" at 25 yards.

[pskys2]

11 hours ago, varminter22 said:

But again, why do most manufacturers (and handloaders that don't slug nor experiment) use the smaller dia bullets in 9mm ammo and the larger in 38/357 ammo? 

 

Before the 929 was introduced, there were other 9mm revolvers (not many, but some) and I don't recall folks complaining about .358" barrels on them.  

Remember in a Revolver the Barrel can have less effect on accuracy than the cylinder throats.  

2nd question, before the 929 and Ruger's 9mm Revolvers I don't think many 9mm revolvers were used in competition.  Before those two the .38 Super was the odd favorite of Revolver Competitors and the super tends to use .356+ jacketed bullets even in 1911's.  Competition is where we fret over accuracy, or hunting.

[Toolguy]

The main thing to remember is you always want to go from bigger to smaller. For example, if you have .358 bullets, you can go to .357 throats and .355 barrel and be OK. If you have .355 bullets and .357 throats and barrel, it may not work as well. If the barrel has a tight spot where it threads into the frame, it will swage the bullets down and they will rattle down the rest of the barrel causing leading and large groups.

[mchapman]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:29 PM, MikeBurgess said:

I'm not sure there is more than one 10 shot 32 out there, I remember seeing pictures of it and IIRC a statement from the guy that built it sayin never again.

Kirby G, Vic M and Billy S all had them, built by the guy in Phoenix , so I think that there were at least 4 of them, but I could be wrong, I've seen 3 of them.

Edited November 17, 2022 by mchapman