How am I more accurate with irons than a slide mounted optic?

[Philo_Beddoe]

I had my CZ shadow slide milled to accept a Holosun 507c.  At 25 yards offhand I can hold a softball sized 10 shot group with the irons.  With the optic it opens up to a large dinner plate sized group at 25 yards with the same ammo.  I checked the optic, it appears to be mounted snugly to the plate and slide.  With the optic I keep both eyes open, but I have to close an eye with irons, my right eye is very dominant. Unless the optic is defective, I am at a loss to explain how I am more accurate with irons.  This is absolutely not the case with long guns, with them I am more accurate with the optic (red dot or scope) than with iron sights.  Thanks.

[Blackstone45]

Red dots can really accentuate how wobbly/unsteady your aim appears to be. Perhaps it means you're trying to chase the perfect position of the dot in the centre of the target and jerking the trigger as a result.

[Philo_Beddoe]

6 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said:

Red dots can really accentuate how wobbly/unsteady your aim appears to be. Perhaps it means you're trying to chase the perfect position of the dot in the centre of the target and jerking the trigger as a result.

That’s very plausible, I was a bit distracted by the dot moving on the target.  I assume the solution is practice?

[motosapiens]

your example may be extreme, but in my experience it's not unusual to be less accurate with a dot when it comes to more extreme shots. people use them because they are *faster*, not because they are more accurate. For example, I definitely can hit stuff at 100-300 yards more accurately with iron sights than with an unmagnified dot on my AR.

 

Regarding the wobble, Steve Anderson has good advice... just accept it, and realize the sight (iron or dot) is going to move around. Just hold it within the area it moves around while carefully pressing the trigger. what typically doesn't work is trying to get the perfect still sight picture and then real quick pull the trigger before it goes away.

 

you should improve significantly with practice because one of the benefits of a dot is that it's very easy to see when your grip is weak and/or your trigger press sloppy or jerky, so you can work on it in real time.

Edited July 18, 2022 by motosapiens

[Philo_Beddoe]

27 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 "what typically doesn't work is trying to get the perfect still sight picture and then real quick pull the trigger before it goes away."

 

I may have been doing exactly that, at 25 yds offhand the dot movement on the target seemed extreme compared to the iron sight, even though it’s the same for both.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Philo_Beddoe

[Blackstone45]

3 hours ago, Philo_Beddoe said:

 "what typically doesn't work is trying to get the perfect still sight picture and then real quick pull the trigger before it goes away."

 

I may have been doing exactly that, at 25 yds offhand the dot movement on the target seemed extreme compared to the iron sight, even though it’s the same for both.

Exactly.

 

I only use a red dot for bullseye/PPC style shooting on a pistol. And while at 50m it looks like the dot is wobbling all over the 8 ring, when I go check the target, I'm pleasantly surprised by the lack of 8s, and comparatively few 9s.

[lgh]

14 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

what typically doesn't work is trying to get the perfect still sight picture and then real quick pull the trigger before it goes away

This. Also, keep your attention on the target and don't "chase the dot". 1. Attention on target. 2. Dot shows up. 3. Press trigger.

[Joe4d]

I tried it for a year shooting pins.. On my major gun and on a minor gun..  Had some growing pains with issues ruining matches.  Got bugs out but really wasnt helping much. Finally pulled them and started winning matches.  For me they just didnt work even with less than perfect eyes

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

22 hours ago, Joe4d said:

I tried it for a year shooting pins.. On my major gun and on a minor gun..  Had some growing pains with issues ruining matches.  Got bugs out but really wasnt helping much. Finally pulled them and started winning matches.  For me they just didnt work even with less than perfect eyes

 

 

You have to know how to use one.........

[jeremy kemlo]

Sounds like you are not target focused when using the dot. Put black tape over the front of the optic and shoot the gun. If you are target focused with both eyes open you won’t notice the tape. If you are seeing the tape then you are not target focused. Try going from close to near targets and from target to reload and back to target in dry fire. Do this with the optic taped. Then do it live fire optic taped and then no tape and see if the fixes the problem. 

[jimbullet]

On 7/22/2022 at 7:26 PM, jeremy kemlo said:

Sounds like you are not target focused when using the dot. Put black tape over the front of the optic and shoot the gun. If you are target focused with both eyes open you won’t notice the tape. If you are seeing the tape then you are not target focused. Try going from close to near targets and from target to reload and back to target in dry fire. Do this with the optic taped. Then do it live fire optic taped and then no tape and see if the fixes the problem. 

Im having the same issues - better with irons but not with optics. Can you elaborate as Im confused -  where do you put the black tape - to cover the optic so it covers the dot?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, jimbullet said:

Im having the same issues - better with irons but not with optics. Can you elaborate as Im confused -  where do you put the black tape - to cover the optic so it covers the dot?

 

On the front side of the lens.  You do not want to cover the dot.  You want the LED to project the dot on the glass but you be unable to see through the glass.

 

Virtually everyone who says they're faster with irons is trying to use a red dot like it was a front sight post (focusing on it) and trying to see the world through the lens.  Some even close their off eye, which makes everything even slower.  Covering the front of the lens will force you to focus on the target with both eyes while the dot just floats in your field of view.

 

You do have both eyes open, right?

Edited July 23, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[motosapiens]

28 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

On the front side of the lens.  You do not want to cover the dot.  You want the LED to project the dot on the glass but you be unable to see through the glass.

 

Virtually everyone who says they're faster with irons is trying to use a red dot like it was a front sight post (focusing on it) and trying to see the world through the lens.  Some even close their off eye, which makes everything even slower.  Covering the front of the lens will force you to focus on the target with both eyes while the dot just floats in your field of view.

 

this totally describes me when I first started using a dot. It's taken some time, but it's pretty amazing how much faster you can shoot when you just look at the target and stop *looking* at the dot and just see it instead. It helps alot to have a sufficiently bright dot.

[jeremy kemlo]

On 7/23/2022 at 12:49 PM, jimbullet said:

Im having the same issues - better with irons but not with optics. Can you elaborate as Im confused -  where do you put the black tape - to cover the optic so it covers the dot?

Tape on the front of the lens so the dot is still visible. Doing drills from close target to a far target will often get you to switch from dot to target focused. Having the tape on reveals when you are switching from target focus back to the dot. A lot of times you will think you are target focused and not even realized you have switched that to dot focused. Also going from a long target to reload and back to a longer  target will exacerbate the problem. That’s why those drills are good in dry fire. Once you can do that consistently then try it with live fire. Do your first lifefire session with tape still covering the front of the optic. Make sure you can do it consistently before removing it. Once you can do it consistently it’s still good to dry fire with tape over the optic to ensure that you were staying target focused.

[Pmatte1]

Never thought about this.  I gotta try this tape thing to play around with a dot. 

[HeadSpace]

It's simple. Iron sights or RDS? Use whatever you are most comfortable with. It's personal preference. The only difference between iron sights and RDS is the speed of target aquisition. RDS  you don't need to align the front sight, rear sight and the target. You just place your dot on the target and shoot.

 

And yes, with RDS, you focus on the target with both eyes open.  Your eyes will make the necessary adjustments to a point where, even if you cover the lens of your optic. You will still see the red dot on your target. When you can do that, then you are using your RDS properly.

[rowdyb]

familiarity and reference. with a little dedicated effort this will flip.

[Joe4d]

Tape thing never worked for me,, all I ever saw was a dot on the back side of the tape... just in case others think they were the only one. 

[bimmer1980]

4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Tape thing never worked for me,, all I ever saw was a dot on the back side of the tape... just in case others think they were the only one. 

That´s the deal. If you are not target focus you see black and a dot, but no target. 

[Blackstone45]

5 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Tape thing never worked for me,, all I ever saw was a dot on the back side of the tape... just in case others think they were the only one. 

Then you are either doing it wrong, or your brain and/or eyes are just wired differently.

[sfinney]

It’s like staring at one of those trick pictures that can be two different things, long enough. One day you will look at it and your brain goes…..      ”oh”.

[rowdyb]

In teaching it is crazy how many people I see new to red dots that are either what I call "looking through the tube" or "using the dot like a front sight post"

[VeilAndrew]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:00 AM, Blackstone45 said:

Then you are either doing it wrong, or your brain and/or eyes are just wired differently.

I have a lot of trouble shooting occluded as well. I'm also a right handed shooter with cross eye dominance, so I present under my left eye. My right eye (vision-wise) is so weak it makes it hard to be able to maintain a pure target focus without being able to look through the "tube" -- but I definitely see the value in it.

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

In teaching it is crazy how many people I see new to red dots that are either what I call "looking through the tube" or "using the dot like a front sight post"

 

In your, or other posters experience,  are all shooters capable, with practice, of using a red dot correctly? Do some shooters eyes or brains just not adjust to them or is it more a lack of putting the work in. It sounds like it does come more naturally to some shooters. I'm just getting set up to shoot an optic for the first time. Thanks.

[VeilAndrew]

2 hours ago, MHicks said:

 

In your, or other posters experience,  are all shooters capable, with practice, of using a red dot correctly? Do some shooters eyes or brains just not adjust to them or is it more a lack of putting the work in. It sounds like it does come more naturally to some shooters. I'm just getting set up to shoot an optic for the first time. Thanks.

For me, I only put about a thousand rounds through iron sights before I started putting optics on everything. If you're used to iron sights, you'll have to break some habits. I would highly recommend the Sage Dynamics youtube channel and some of his videos about fundamentals of shooting with an optic on handguns. Like this one for example: