Shooter-Voted Best Nationals Location

[broadside72]

The proposed Rapid City range might be nice, if it ever gets built. Currently proposed for 18 action bays (30yd by 50yd being the smallest) and only 12 miles from Rapid City, so transportation is easy and there is some touristy stuff to do in the region. One issue would be the build plan lacks a large enough building for awards/dinner on-site.

 

But it would need to get approved, funded and built for any actual consideration. 

[IL-SIG]

For a bit of clarity regarding Cardinal Shooting Center:

 

1) I know folks have talked about shooting stages in the concrete bays. This is factually incorrect. We do not use the concrete bays for competition.  Those bays are only used for warm-up / site-in bay. 
 

2) All competition bays can be fully utilized with side-to-side shooting angles including the bays with wood side berms. The range has plenty of bullet traps enabling a full variety of shooting directions. 
 

I’m happy to answer any additional questions anyone has about Cardinal. 

[Fishbreath]

9 hours ago, OPENB said:

Yeah, the bays with the concrete walls suck, but they are using bullet traps to try allow more directions other than directly down range. 

 

That one doesn't matter as much to me—clever stage design mitigates it. I didn't feel like the stages in the wood-wall bays at CO Nationals were particularly samey.

 

Warmup bays are a bit of a luxury, admittedly, but now that I've tasted the fruit, I'm an advocate.

[shred]

People I know that shot Cardinal before they built the new dirt bays have a more negative opinion about it..

 

The haul from one side to the other mid-match isn't very fun and the vendors hate it because they get skipped, but that's less of a thing.

 

Btw, from the looks of it, Talledega is putting in some new bays behind the parking lot.  That should improve the situation there too.

 

[IL-SIG]

As noted in the matchbook, the vendors and food vendor will be located in a different and preferred location with much more foot traffic. 
 

https://s3.uspsa.io/formc_match_books/6988/Handgun_Nationals_Matchbook_2023_5.pdf

[shred]

That should be an improvement over CO nats!  The BBQ sandwiches were good, but a bit of a hike.

 

[IL-SIG]

6 hours ago, shred said:

That should be an improvement over CO nats!  The BBQ sandwiches were good, but a bit of a hike.

 

Agreed!

[T3P_Guy]

On 9/15/2023 at 5:52 PM, broadside72 said:

The proposed Rapid City range might be nice, if it ever gets built. Currently proposed for 18 action bays (30yd by 50yd being the smallest) and only 12 miles from Rapid City, so transportation is easy and there is some touristy stuff to do in the region. One issue would be the build plan lacks a large enough building for awards/dinner on-site.

 

But it would need to get approved, funded and built for any actual consideration. 

The Rapid City range project is a go, first phase of construction has been bid and awarded for all the dirt work and range surfaces for the entire project. The start date is open with a completion date of November of 2024.

As far as a large enough building on site the planned building wouldn't be large enough for 500+ people but there is The Box event center 9 miles straight down the road that as 60,000 sq feet of available room.

[Dirty_J]

Rapid city? South Dakota?  

 

That’s gotta have even less airline options than Cameo. No way. 
 

A Nationals even should ONLY been hosted within 90 mins of a MAJOR metropolitan airport. There should be no compromise on this. 
 

[Schutzenmeister]

The following airlines service Rapid City:

 

Allegiant Air, American Airlines/American Eagle, Delta Airlines, Sun Country Airlines and United Airlines

 

Just how many do you need?

[T3P_Guy]

13 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

Rapid city? South Dakota?  

 

That’s gotta have even less airline options than Cameo. No way. 
 

A Nationals even should ONLY been hosted within 90 mins of a MAJOR metropolitan airport. There should be no compromise on this. 
 

We have a large regional airport that has 5 airlines located 25 minutes from the range, it's more than large enough to handle all the people flying in. 

 

I'm unsure as to why you feel this is a deal breaker for a range, if it was a setup like what's in Grand Island, NE where it's about impossible to fly into I would get it

Edited September 25, 2023 by T3P_Guy

[Dirty_J]

33 minutes ago, T3P_Guy said:

We have a large regional airport that has 5 airlines located 25 minutes from the range, it's more than large enough to handle all the people flying in. 

 

I'm unsure as to why you feel this is a deal breaker for a range, if it was a setup like what's in Grand Island, NE where it's about impossible to fly into I would get it

Some carrier options… for sure.. but 14 flights a day? That ain’t large. Not even close. 
 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Dirty_J

[Schutzenmeister]

Maybe we should build a large range in Manhattan ... Central Park has the space.  Hopefully JFK could meet the massive influx of shooters.

 

Clearly, I think someplace like Rapid City can handle what we would need.

[Dirty_J]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:10 AM, Schutzenmeister said:

Maybe we should build a large range in Manhattan ... Central Park has the space.  Hopefully JFK could meet the massive influx of shooters.

 

Clearly, I think someplace like Rapid City can handle what we would need.

Says the guy that hasn’t shot a nationals since 2016.  
 

You watch what happens to ticket prices when 400+ shooters are trying to book airfare on one of the 14 daily flights into an airport like that… 
 

90 minutes. 
 

Miami. Orlando. Atlanta. Charlotte. Detroit. DFW. MSP. Houston. Phoenix. Vegas. SLC. 

 

If an airline ain’t using it as a hub… it ain’t a major airport. 

 

Obviously the mag-ban commie states are excluded   

 

[Schutzenmeister]

Moderators – Your forbearance is requested.  My integrity and credibility have been directly challenged.

 

@Dirty_J

 

On 9/26/2023 at 9:50 PM, Dirty_J said:

Says the guy that hasn’t shot a nationals since 2016.  
 

You watch what happens to ticket prices when 400+ shooters are trying to book airfare on one of the 14 daily flights into an airport like that… 
 

90 minutes. 
 

Miami. Orlando. Atlanta. Charlotte. Detroit. DFW. MSP. Houston. Phoenix. Vegas. SLC. 

 

If an airline ain’t using it as a hub… it ain’t a major airport. 

 

Obviously the mag-ban commie states are excluded   

 

 

Since you have chosen to do a dumpster dive on me, let’s get some comparative facts on the table:

 

You’ve been in the sport now for a little over 6 years.  Congratulations, you’re no longer a rookie.  On the other hand, I’ve been in the sport for over 30 years.  I think that qualifies me as a grizzled veteran.  Are there others around that have been around longer than I?  Sure … And I try to respect them.

 

You’re correct.  The last nationals I shot­ was in 2016.  My reasons are my own and not subject to your review or approval.  Since you joined USPSA in 2017 it would appear you have shot a total of 3 nationals, all in PCC.  (Note:  The 2023 figures have not been posted … This may be 4 by now.)  I shot my first nationals in 1996.  In the intervening 20 years I competed in, conservatively, 40 or more USPSA nationals.  This does not include the equivalent or higher level IPSC matches.

 

I see you’re an RO.  Thank you for stepping up and volunteering your time.  In the 3+ years since you became an RO you have apparently worked 3 Level 2 matches in or near your home.  Since the last nationals I shot (2016) I have worked something on the order of a dozen nationals, several area matches, and 7 IPSC matches at Level 3 or higher.  For those matches I have been the RM for 3 US IPSC Nationals and 2 IPSC Continental Championships (Level 4.)  I completed my requirements for Range Master more than 6 years before you even got into this sport.

 

I point the above facts out as experience shooting a nationals has little relevance to the multiple factors of where to host a nationals, such as to distance from an airport to a shooting venue.  That decision is based far more on the logistics of the match.

 

For many years the USPSA Nationals were held at PASA Park in IL.  The closest major airport would be Kansas City … 2 1/2 hours away.  I’ve shot and worked there many times.  I’ve also shot and/or worked nationals in Fredericksburg, VA; Missoula, MT; Bend OR; Talladega, AL; and Tulsa, OK.  NONE of these venues would meet your requirements as stated.

 

You also seem to think that in a typical 400+ shooter nationals everyone will be trying to fly in at the same time.  News flash … Let’s examine that.  Typically, 10-15% of the shooters will be staff and sponsors.  That means they have to be there several days sooner than the last day before the main match begins.  Next, consider that there is virtually always a sizeable number of shooters who choose to drive to the match.  Some of them it’s because they live close enough that it makes more sense to drive than to fly.  Some others just don’t like to fly, especially with guns and ammo.  Out of what’s left, I would estimate that only about 150 or less will be flying.  Let’s break that down further …

 

To be certain, some folks will choose to fly the day before the match begins and arrive “just-in-time.”  Others will choose to get there 1-2 days early in order to settle in, get their gear ready, rest after the flight, and check out the stages while the staff shoots them.  My best guess: 50-60 folks will try to fly in the day before.  That kind of puts a different spin on your analysis of 400+ shooters all trying to get into an airport with 14 flights per day at the same time.  It just doesn’t work that way in real life.

 

I honestly do apologize for seeming to come down on you this so hard.  However, you strongly intimated that since I had not shot a nationals since 2016 I was somehow unqualified to have an opinion.  Hopefully, I have pointed out that a lot more goes into an analysis such as this than merely competing in the match.  I have the experience and training to know better.

 

FWIW, I’m not certain that Rapid City would make an ideal location for a nationals … but you are cutting it off at the knees based substantially on distance to a “major airport.”  A lot more goes into these decisions than what you seem to give credit for.

[cautery]

That sound you heard was a Forum Rules violator having his "4th Point of Contact" sheared off by a well-composed and reasoned response.

Bravo Mike!  Well handled.  I am in awe of your self-control.  I shall endeavor to emulate your example.

 

[Sarge]

36 minutes ago, cautery said:

"4th Point of Contact" 

Man,I haven’t heard that in a long time.

Thanks for the memories!

[redbarron06]

Not sure how M’boro TN got on the list but other than it doesn’t have a place to have a major shooting event, it would not be bad.  Hour to BNA, and down town Nashville.  Plenty of touristy stuff to do and only 2 hours from me.  It’s got my vote.

[shred]

St. George has a tiny airport with maybe 6 flights a day, but we still managed to get cheap flights there for several Nationals.

 

[Schutzenmeister]

3 minutes ago, shred said:

St. George has a tiny airport with maybe 6 flights a day, but we still managed to get cheap flights there for several Nationals.

 

Forgot that one ... Vegas is about 2.5 hours away and SLC a little over 4.

[Schutzenmeister]

2 hours ago, cautery said:

 "4th Point of Contact"
 

 

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Man,I haven’t heard that in a long time.

Thanks for the memories!

 

Had to look that one up ... I'm retired Air Force.  My daddy taught me there was never a good reason to jump out of a perfectly good airplane!

 

[cautery]

5 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

 

Had to look that one up ... I'm retired Air Force.  My daddy taught me there was never a good reason to jump out of a perfectly good airplane!

 

I am Airborne, and I mostly agree. 

I figured it out about 4 yrs in and branch transferred to Aviation.

My Uncle was an Air Force Officer.  He swore me in at Commissioning and sincerely asked me to change my mind and take a Commission in the Air Force.  (great story)  A decision I got wrong, and will forever remember. 

Funny story.  I am deathly afraid of heights.  (More precisely, I am afraid of hitting the Earth at great velocity)  Like for real.  But I have dozens of jumps....  Moral of the story...

You DO what you have to do to feed your family.
That $100 (and then $110) a month was the difference between solvency and hunger for a brand new Officer and his family of 2 with one on the way. 

Now, flying... whole nuther thing if "I" am the pilot. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by cautery

[cautery]

6 hours ago, Sarge said:

Man,I haven’t heard that in a long time.

Thanks for the memories!

You are welcome. 
Some things don't wear off...