Placing magazines on a barrel before the course of fire

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Your opinion is directly opposite to what 8.6.4 says.

 

No reshoot.

Sorry, you are mistaken, and pretty obviously so. Consider a similar situation, where a popper falls (or a wall), or a person is still downrange, or a big snake slithers into the shooting area where it can only be seen in the final position. The original action happened before the COF, but the actual interference happens during the COF.

 

But again, this is mostly just internet trollery and shenanigans.... in 10 years of working national and area matches, I've never seen this situation; possibly because shooters typically verify their mags are in place, and possibly because stupid stages with all mags on different barrels are not very popular at national matches or A1-A2. In fact, I'm working A1 starting later this morning, and there are no stupid stages with all mags on different barrels. Hooray!

Edited June 2, 2022 by motosapiens

[waktasz]

It nearly happened to me once.  A friend/teammate of mine shoots the same gun with the same basepads and was the shooter before me. I staged my mags as they were scoring his run, and then he went around to grab the spare mags he didn't use off the barrels. We had a different stage plan so my mags were on different barrels and he just grabbed two that I planned on using. 
I saw it and we had a big laugh that he was trying to sabotage me. 

[Balakay]

14 hours ago, RJH said:

 

So then you must agree that the range officer "may" offer a reshoot. Because another shooter moving your mags without anyone's knowledge would definitely be "another external influence" that would definitely interfere during the course of fire

 

Nice how you didn't answer the second question, Schultz...

[Ontos]

Shooting PCC I do this all the time.  Never given it a second though. 

[Kiwishoot]

Have seen a couple of new/distracted shooters who pull their mags out, put them on the barrel... and do the very next natural thing... by pulling their gun out and sticking it on the barrel too. Then the tears begin as the RO looks at them with a puzzled expression on their face.

Good habits last a life time. Get into a good habit, only pull out the gear you need to shoot the stage when told to.

[TaterHead]

1 hour ago, Kiwishoot said:

Have seen a couple of new/distracted shooters who pull their mags out, put them on the barrel... and do the very next natural thing... by pulling their gun out and sticking it on the barrel too.

DQ’d a very new shooter for exactly that years ago. Folks were still downrange resetting. I felt bad for him. I bet we have neither forgot it.

[davebenson]

This is common practice where loading devices need to come from a barrel.  
 

Not an issue.  

[davebenson]

For those that think you can walk the stage placing mags to be used during the COF after “make ready” please note. 
 

after the “Make ready” command the competitor may not move from start location.  

 

8.3.1.1
Once the
"Make ready"
command
has been given, the competitor must not
move away from the start location prior to
issuance of the "Start Signal" without the
prior approval, and under the direct
supervision, of the Range Officer.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, davebenson said:

For those that think you can walk the stage placing mags to be used during the COF after “make ready” please note. 
 

after the “Make ready” command the competitor may not move from start location.  

 

8.3.1.1
Once the
"Make ready"
command
has been given, the competitor must not
move away from the start location prior to
issuance of the "Start Signal" without the
prior approval, and under the direct
supervision, of the Range Officer.

 

I can most certainly step away from the start location after the make ready command to go place magazines where they need to be.  All I have to do is ask and no RO who isn't a complete tool will say no.

 

It's RIGHT THERE in the rule that you quoted!

 

 

[davebenson]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I can most certainly step away from the start location after the make ready command to go place magazines where they need to be.  All I have to do is ask and no RO who isn't a complete tool will say no.

 

It's RIGHT THERE in the rule that you quoted!

 

 

You are correct. 
 

8.3.1
"Make Ready" - This command
signifies the start of "the Course of Fire"
Under the direct supervision of the Range
Officer the competitor must face
downrange, or in a safe direction as
specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and
hearing protection, and prepare the firearm
in accordance with the written stage
briefing. The competitor must then assume
the specified start position. The Range
Officer will not proceed with any further
range commands until the competitor is still
and is in the correct start position.

 

to me the key words are “prepare the firearm in accordance…”

 

You are correct if the competitor forgot to stage mags and did not realize that prior to make ready the RO may and should allow the competitor to stage their mags.  As the RO, If They loaded the gun Prior to realizing they needed to stage mags I have had them unload show clear, holster, range clear and after they placed their mags reissue the make ready command.  Did I need to do that, some may say no but better to error on the side of Saftey.  And I never had a competitor give me any flack for doing so. 

should your stage plan included staging mags after the make ready command? 

well it could. 
 

In my opinion, I would not think that to be the best stage plan.  However That is what makes this an interesting sport everyone can have a different plan that best suits their style 

as the stage RO it would be good to point out during the stage brief that it is permissible to stage your mags prior to coming to the start line. 

 

it helps in keeping things moving along if the competitors do so. 
 

You brought up good points making this an interesting discussion 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, davebenson said:

You are correct. 
 

8.3.1
"Make Ready" - This command
signifies the start of "the Course of Fire"
Under the direct supervision of the Range
Officer the competitor must face
downrange, or in a safe direction as
specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and
hearing protection, and prepare the firearm
in accordance with the written stage
briefing. The competitor must then assume
the specified start position. The Range
Officer will not proceed with any further
range commands until the competitor is still
and is in the correct start position.

 

to me the key words are “prepare the firearm in accordance…”

 

You are correct if the competitor forgot to stage mags and did not realize that prior to make ready the RO may and should allow the competitor to stage their mags.  As the RO, If They loaded the gun Prior to realizing they needed to stage mags I have had them unload show clear, holster, range clear and after they placed their mags reissue the make ready command.  Did I need to do that, some may say no but better to error on the side of Saftey.  And I never had a competitor give me any flack for doing so. 

should your stage plan included staging mags after the make ready command? 

well it could. 
 

In my opinion, I would not think that to be the best stage plan.  However That is what makes this an interesting sport everyone can have a different plan that best suits their style 

as the stage RO it would be good to point out during the stage brief that it is permissible to stage your mags prior to coming to the start line. 

 

it helps in keeping things moving along if the competitors do so. 
 

You brought up good points making this an interesting discussion 

 

I would not necessarily make the shooter unload and show clear (if it is indeed a loaded start) to let him go stage magazines.

 

If the start position is loaded and holstered, I'd just accompany him to place the magazines once he loads and holsters.  No different, IMO, than him running around shooting at things with me nearby.

 

If the start position is loaded and placed on some surface, I'd then require ULSC, holster, then let him go place magazines on his own.

[davebenson]

37 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I would not necessarily make the shooter unload and show clear (if it is indeed a loaded start) to let him go stage magazines.

 

If the start position is loaded and holstered, I'd just accompany him to place the magazines once he loads and holsters.  No different, IMO, than him running around shooting at things with me nearby.

 

If the start position is loaded and placed on some surface, I'd then require ULSC, holster, then let him go place magazines on his own.

As you know there no rules governing how the RO handles the situation.  My preference is if the barrels are close and maybe 1 or 2, I like you will escort the competitor.  If it is a large stage and several barrels I prefer to Unload and let the competitor do as he needs.  Then when he returns reissue make ready. I have not had any competitor complaints about unloading to go place mags on the appropriate staging area.  
 

there is always the first time. 
 

so here is an interesting twist. The competitor is under the make ready command, his gun is loaded and in the hostler. They then realize they need to stage mags before you say standby they request to stage mags you approve but don’t unload show clear and you  supervise them placing mags.  Both of you return to the start position.  Do you reissue make ready?   They are already under the make ready command from before they requested to stage mags and as the RO you have not stopped them with any appropriate commands. 
 

so what would your next command be? 
 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

25 minutes ago, davebenson said:

so here is an interesting twist. The competitor is under the make ready command, his gun is loaded and in the hostler. They then realize they need to stage mags before you say standby they request to stage mags you approve but don’t unload show clear and you  supervise them placing mags.  Both of you return to the start position.  Do you reissue make ready?   They are already under the make ready command from before they requested to stage mags and as the RO you have not stopped them with any appropriate commands. 

 

so what would your next command be? 
 

The shooter asked permission to move away from the start position to complete his make ready actions (ie place his reloads where they need to be) and I gave that permission.  He is under the make ready command the entire time from when I say "make ready" to when I ask "are you ready".  Whether I accompanied him or not is irrelevant as that is RO's choice and not required by the rules.

 

Once he returns to the start location, assumes the start position, and becomes motionless, I ask "are you ready" just like the book requires.

 

If he is confused or asks me what do do next when he returns to the start location, I will simply say that he is still under the make ready command and that he can assume the start position when he is ready.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[davebenson]

13 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

The shooter asked permission to move away from the start position to complete his make ready actions (ie place his reloads where they need to be) and I gave that permission.  He is under the make ready command the entire time from when I say "make ready" to when I ask "are you ready".  Whether I accompanied him or not is irrelevant as that is RO's choice and not required by the rules.

 

Once he returns to the start location, assumes the start position, and becomes motionless, I ask "are you ready" just like the book requires.

 

If he is confused or asks me what do do next when he returns to the start location, I will simply say that he is still under the make ready command and that he can assume the start position when he is ready.

Exactly my thoughts/action as well. 

[davebenson]

14 minutes ago, davebenson said:

Exactly my thoughts/action as well. 

I don’t see staging mags as part of 8.3.1 but 8.3.1.1 give us the opportunity to do so after the make ready command.  And if the RO clears them or not is really up to the RO and the situation at hand. 
 

while someone could make this practice part of their stage plan I think you’ll agree it may not be the best plan. 
 

but hay everyone solves the puzzle in their own way.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, davebenson said:

I don’t see staging mags as part of 8.3.1

 

I do.  8.3.1 includes the phrase "prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing".  if the written stage briefing says that reloads must be placed on certain objects around the course of fire, then placing magazines there is part of "preparing the firearm in accordance with the WSB".

 

Magazines are an integral part of the firearm.

 

 

[GigG]

Guys in this situation 8.3.1 & 8.3.1.1, as written, are counter to one another.  That's why we have ROs and an MD.  The MD should, before the match tell the ROs how this should be handled. And the ROs should inform the shooters.

[Sarge]

Jesus, it never ceases to amaze me how long we can talk about a non issue.

And by the way I think staging mags has zero to do with prepping the gun as indicated in WSB.

[davebenson]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I do.  8.3.1 includes the phrase "prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing".  if the written stage briefing says that reloads must be placed on certain objects around the course of fire, then placing magazines there is part of "preparing the firearm in accordance with the WSB".

 

Magazines are an integral part of the firearm.

 

 

8.3.1.1 has a provision for the RO to allow the competitor to move after make ready.  For those situations where a competitor realized they forgot something in their range bag or forgot to stage mags. 
 

I don’t agree with you assertion of what make ready is based on the way it is written in 8.3.1. 
 

And That is okay 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, davebenson said:

I don’t agree with you assertion of what make ready is based on the way it is written in 8.3.1. 

 

Yes it's Ok to disagree.  It's helpful to articulate the reason for one's position.  It helps the other person understand.

 

I gave my reasoning why I consider staging magazines a part of making the firearm ready for use.  I see it as no different than a shooter re-arranging the magazines on his belt. 

 

Interested in the reasons why you don't.

[davebenson]

On 6/24/2022 at 5:58 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Yes it's Ok to disagree.  It's helpful to articulate the reason for one's position.  It helps the other person understand.

 

I gave my reasoning why I consider staging magazines a part of making the firearm ready for use.  I see it as no different than a shooter re-arranging the magazines on his belt. 

 

Interested in the reasons why you don't.

Yes  8.3.1 specifically talks to 3 items.  Eye protection, ear protection and making the firearm ready as defined in the WSB. 
 

as we have been reminded several times by USPSA don’t read things into a rule to fit your opinion if it is not written in the rule. 
 

as far as the competitor being ready review 8.2.2

 

8.2.2
The competitor assumes the
Start position as specified in the written
stage briefing.

if the requirement to place mags on the stage was written in the WSB in the “start position “    
 

therefore placing mags on a stage if in the WSB start position then 8.2.2 addresses placing mags not the “make ready” cmd

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, davebenson said:

Yes  8.3.1 specifically talks to 3 items.  Eye protection, ear protection and making the firearm ready as defined in the WSB. 
 

as we have been reminded several times by USPSA don’t read things into a rule to fit your opinion if it is not written in the rule. 
 

as far as the competitor being ready review 8.2.2

 

8.2.2
The competitor assumes the
Start position as specified in the written
stage briefing.

if the requirement to place mags on the stage was written in the WSB in the “start position “    
 

therefore placing mags on a stage if in the WSB start position then 8.2.2 addresses placing mags not the “make ready” cmd

 

8.2.2 can't happen until the make ready command is given.  That confirms why I think the way I do.

 

Thanks

[Cuz]

Did the OP ever explain why he asked this question?  I must have missed it. 

[davebenson]

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

8.2.2 can't happen until the make ready command is given.  That confirms why I think the way I do.

 

Thanks

Don’t read something into the  rules that is not written 

 

it leads to inconsistent application of the rules because not everyone thinks like you. 
 

and yes the competitor can get themselves ready before the make ready. 
 

Make ready does not say anything about mags.  Period. The fact you want it does not change the words. 

[davebenson]

59 minutes ago, davebenson said:

Don’t read something into the  rules that is not written 

 

it leads to inconsistent application of the rules because not everyone thinks like you. 
 

and yes the competitor can get themselves ready before the make ready. 
 

Make ready does not say anything about mags.  Period. The fact you want it does not change the words. 

This conversation on personal  opinions on a rule beyond what is written is well beyond the original topic

 

should you like to continue a discussion on personal interpretation of rules beyond what is written lets start another topic.