Is the 650 worth automating?

[Pickin]

Hello All

 

Looking to automate my 650 for brass prep.  Decap, swage, and trim.  I do 9, 40, 45, 223, 300blck, and 308.  Would it be worth it to pick up an autodrive to have this step done for me?

[Sigarmsp226]

Pickin - This is just my opinion and others may disagree.  The 650 was not built to swage - I know it can be set up to swage but as soon as you bolt on that swage unit your lifetime warranty on that machine is voided…..If I was looking to automate a machine to process brass I would look for a good used 1050 or 1100. The biggest disadvantage to using a 1050 or 1100 series machine will be the set up costs per caliber(tool head, caliber conversion, etc.) vs. the set up costs for a 650….

 

Not an easy choice as I have heard where add on swage units have caused the 650’s frame to crack (I have owned a 650 for about 10 years and elected to swage on a stand alone Dillon Swage unit) rather than utilize the after market bolt on swage unit…This is one of the reasons I purchased a 1100…..Just my thoughts…Mark
 

 

[Pickin]

36 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Pickin - This is just my opinion and others may disagree.  The 650 was not built to swage - I know it can be set up to swage but as soon as you bolt on that swage unit your lifetime warranty on that machine is voided…..If I was looking to automate a machine to process brass I would look for a good used 1050 or 1100. The biggest disadvantage to using a 1050 or 1100 series machine will be the set up costs per caliber(tool head, caliber conversion, etc.) vs. the set up costs for a 650….

 

Not an easy choice as I have heard where add on swage units have caused the 650’s frame to crack (I have owned a 650 for about 10 years and elected to swage on a stand alone Dillon Swage unit) rather than utilize the after market bolt on swage unit…This is one of the reasons I purchased a 1100…..Just my thoughts…Mark
 

 

Mark, 

Good to know.  What if I were to take out the swage step?  Would it still be worth it for all the other steps?

[Cuz]

16 minutes ago, Pickin said:

Mark, 

Good to know.  What if I were to take out the swage step?  Would it still be worth it for all the other steps?

I guess that depends on what press you planned to load on after you prepped the brass. Would it be on the same 650?

 

whether or not the swage step matters to you is where your brass comes from. Mine is mostly range pickup, so it became important to me. 
YMMV. 

[Pickin]

4 minutes ago, Cuz said:

I guess that depends on what press you planned to load on after you prepped the brass. Would it be on the same 650?

 

whether or not the swage step matters to you is where your brass comes from. Mine is mostly range pickup, so it became important to me. 
YMMV. 

Would be on a different 650/750. Just don't want to pull the handle that many times.

 

Mostly range pickup. I also have a roll sizer. The crimp removal on 223/556 is important. 

[Johnnymazz]

Dont do it ! The 650 wasnt made to automate. You will be breaking parts left and right.

[Johnnymazz]

Get a Cp 2000, with automation when Dillon releases them. I run one with an Ammobot

[18111811]

Is the cp2000 really worth it when for  500 more you can get an 1100 and have the ability to load on the machine as well?

Edited July 13, 2021 by 18111811

[Boomstick303]

If you intend to process a lot of 223 save the pennies and get a 1050 or 1100 like mentioned above.  The swaging functionality of those presses makes them worth the extra cost.  They are also designed to swage as mentioned above.  Processing 223 brass in one pass with the Dillon or similar brass trimmer is amazing.  Plus you can make 300 Blackout brass from 223 brass with that setup if you choose.  If choose to convert 223 brass to 333 Blackout do your homework on what brass to use for this.

[George16]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

If you intend to process a lot of 223 save the pennies and get a 1050 or 1100 like mentioned above.  The swaging functionality of those presses makes them worth the extra cost.  They are also designed to swage as mentioned above.  Processing 223 brass in one pass with the Dillon or similar brass trimmer is amazing.  Plus you can make 300 Blackout brass from 223 brass with that setup if you choose.  If choose to convert 223 brass to 333 Blackout do your homework on what brass to use for this.

This. I was breaking the ring indexer left and right processing a bunch load of .223 brass. And this was just doing it manually. I could only imagine if my 650 (sold it after getting the 1100) was automated.

[HesedTech]

6 hours ago, Pickin said:

Would it be worth it to pick up an autodrive to have this step done for me?

I'll give you an answer from experience, no it is not worth it.

 

I put a full tilt M7 with all the sensors on a 650 a few years ago. It worked well, but wore out and broke way too many parts. Beside voiding the warranty, the machine just isn't built for the auto drive. For almost the same amount of money you can auto drive a 1050/1100. The only extra cost issue really is the tool heads, they are expensive compared to the 650/750.

 

I processed a couple of thousand pieces of 223/5.56 brass last week on my 1050 with Ammobot (no longer available, but maybe soon according to Dillon) at 1200 an hour. Couldn't do that with the 650.

 

BTW sold the 650 with the drive a couple of years ago. My only regret was I should have kept the 650 and just sold the drive. As long as primer pockets are swaged or reamed, it's a great medium volume manually run machine. 

 

1 hour ago, 18111811 said:

Is the cp2000 really worth it when for  500 more you can get an 1100 and have the ability to load on the machine as well?

 

If you want a machine dedicated to brass processing, it's probably not a bad idea. But, I'm with you and would rather have another 1100 or 1050 because it can do both.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, 18111811 said:

Is the cp2000 really worth it

 

Not in my eyes.  If you have plenty of money to burn and have the funds to splurge for a press that only processes then yes.  Otherwise buy a press that can load and process.  If the CP came with the trimmer and everything you needed to completely process rifle and pistol brass then maybe.  The cp2000 is a bit expensive for processing only as currently constructed.  My humble opinion.

[MikeyScuba]

4 hours ago, Johnnymazz said:

Dont do it ! The 650 wasnt made to automate. You will be breaking parts left and right.

Not really.  Just get a Lee Univeral Decap die with squirrel daddy pins and you are good to go.  I also use a Lee U die for 9mm and 40.  Clutch needs to be set at 6.

 

I decided to go the 650 route for processing as I was comfortable with the 650 and got a used Mark7 autodrive.  It's currently up to 201,000 cycles.  I don't need swaging so that was never an issue.

 

And yes you do break indexing rings.  I just set the decap as low as possible now without super enlarging the flash holes.  The military 9mm is a *****.  All I have ever broken is index rings and case feed springs wear like mad but at 200,000 rounds what do you expect?  I did have an issue recently but I'm sure that was normal wear and tear,.

[Sigarmsp226]

Pickin - And there you have it Sir - Many views from experienced loaders - I have already learned a lot from this thread that I will use as I move towards automation sometime next year.  This is why I enjoy this forum and the Reloading Section so much.....I read and re-read from others experiences and proceed with eyes wide open.....This has been a GREAT Thread for me....Mark   

[18111811]

And to stay on topic, The only way i can see automating it is for match rifle ammo.  Why?  Because you will get a consistent seating pressure each time whether you load 5 or 200 rounds.  thats about the only reason i can think of due to the limited amount of stations and lack of ability to swage.

[Johnnymazz]

On 7/13/2021 at 11:20 AM, Boomstick303 said:

 

Not in my eyes.  If you have plenty of money to burn and have the funds to splurge for a press that only processes then yes.  Otherwise buy a press that can load and process.  If the CP came with the trimmer and everything you needed to completely process rifle and pistol brass then maybe.  The cp2000 is a bit expensive for processing only as currently constructed.  My humble opinion.

Depends how much you shoot bro. I burn through 1,600 rounds of 9mm every month. My arm was getting tired. With my automated Cp2000, you can dump the brass in and walk away from the machine, the sensors will stop it if theres an issue..I can deprime, swage, and full length resize 1,600 cases in an hour. 

[Boomstick303]

Depends on how much money you have bro.   If you read the context of the question where someone is asking “Is a CP2000 with it when you can have a machine that does both for $500 dollars more?” I think they have a budget in mind. You can draw your own conclusions from that context. I would love to have either a CP2000 or another complete 1050/1100 to process brass only on. I shoot up to 2000 rounds a month and don’t have any issue pulling a lever 2-3k times a month. I would rather spend the funds to automate my current press to processs and load vs spending the money on another press for processing only. Then I speed up processing and loading.  Even if I had the funds I would probably still but another complete press for resale value alone. The market for 1050/1100 is a lot larger than the market for CP2000s.

 

Maybe you missed the end of my post that suggests my comments were my opinion. 

[Johnnymazz]

 

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Edited July 17, 2021 by Johnnymazz

[Johnnymazz]

On 7/15/2021 at 6:49 PM, Boomstick303 said:

Depends on how much money you have bro.   If you read the context of the question where someone is asking “Is a CP2000 with it when you can have a machine that does both for $500 dollars more?” I think they have a budget in mind. You can draw your own conclusions from that context. I would love to have either a CP2000 or another complete 1050/1100 to process brass only on. I shoot up to 2000 rounds a month and don’t have any issue pulling a lever 2-3k times a month. I would rather spend the funds to automate my current press to processs and load vs spending the money on another press for processing only. Then I speed up processing and loading.  Even if I had the funds I would probably still but another complete press for resale value alone. The market for 1050/1100 is a lot larger than the market for CP2000s.

 

Maybe you missed the end of my post that suggests my comments were my opinion. 

Money isnt an issue with me, guess Im lucky I dont care about the resale LOL.

[Cuz]

On 7/15/2021 at 6:49 PM, Boomstick303 said:

 Even if I had the funds I would probably still but another complete press for resale value alone. The market for 1050/1100 is a lot larger than the market for CP2000s.

 

Isn’t a CP2000 just an RL1100 with a few missing pieces???

 

How much more would it cost to buy a CP2000 and the parts to make it an RL1100?

[ddc]

19 hours ago, Cuz said:

Isn’t a CP2000 just an RL1100 with a few missing pieces???

 

How much more would it cost to buy a CP2000 and the parts to make it an RL1100?

 

I do not know this for a fact but have heard that the CP2000 frame is not identical to the RL1100. Close but not close enough to be able to turn it into an RL1100.

 

[Pickin]

So much information. Thank you all.  I don't mind pulling the handle.  I may end up picking up a 1050 with the money I would use to automate. 

[Brooke]

I had a Mark 7 on a 650. I successfully made  lots (a couple of hundred thousand) rounds of 9 mm from range brass. The automation worked fairly well for the early days of Mark 7 meaning none (zero) of the sensors worked acceptably at all. Went through 4 decapping sensors before giving up. That was not a killer defect just don't buy any sensors unless somebody guarantees them and they won't. 

 

The problem was as someone pointed out that the 650 has a number of stamped parts and misused springs (like the ring indexer spring and the primer disc advancing spring and the case index spring in the case feeder). These parts all failed continuously. PITA. The machine clearly does not hold up to automation at least this automation. Since brass processing is the most strenuous use of the equipment (resizing and decapping in particular) it would seem very inappropriate to make the machine into a brass processor. Better to make it a finishing machine (primer insert, fill, seat, crimp) if you want to limit it to a particular function. I know nothing about loading rifle cartridges.

 

Both the Mark 7 and the AmmoBot work well on a 1050 either RL or S. I have not tried an 1100 but I'm guessing its good to go. Dillon might improve the AmmoBot eventually but the Mark 7 has some safety advantages right now. It always knows where it is in a cycle so overcharging or not charging a cartridge is less likely. Honestly I prefer using the AmmoBot but if you are not an experienced reloader who thoroughly understands the reloading cycle you can easily make a double charged cartridge when you're working on a machine issue. I put a bore sight video camera on my bullet insert station so I can see the powder in each cartridge. I had a spare Apple laptop so I did that for about $50 off Amazon. Works well.

 

If you are just going to process brass you can get an AmmoBot cheaper assuming they are still available. I'm not sure about that. If you want to be flexible (I Would) then get a Mark 7 for a 1050/1100. If you are going to make multiple calibers set up a toolhead for each and a shell plate. Anything less and you'll go crazy changing over constantly. The ideal plan is a 1050/1100 for each caliber and a Mark 7 for those machines where you plan on large quantities. A manually operated 1050/1100 is a very capable machine so Mark 7's are unnecessary luxuries in many cases. Be aware before jumping in the water that automating a 1050 style machine requires removal of the ratchet that prevents short cycling the machine leading to the opportunity for bad outcomes in charging. Both zero and double charging. That make the video camera a complete necessity at my place.

 

Good luck guys. The 1050/1100 machines are vastly superior to the others in design and durability. Skip the automation until later if necessary and get  the best reloader.