Open up USPSA Revolver Division Poll

[Makicjf]

43 minutes ago, RJH said:

So everybody knows I'm just having fun I don't really care what anybody shoots. I am against adding any more divisions though, and wouldn't be broken hearted if they combined revolver, L10, single stack, and production all-in-one 8 round major 10-round minor division

This, in many ways, makes a lot of sense to me.     

Honestly, I don't think revo  really belongs in USPSA.  USPSA is a  high speed, high capacity and  technology driven sport and will continue to evolve along that path as far as rules will allow.  I'm just glad I have a place to shoot.   Locally,  production and ss is nearly as dead as revo for the above reason.   Giving the lo-cap guys a place to shoot with a degree of parity could be beneficial.  

Why not score Revo 8 shot major, but only require minor, to increase parity to a degree?   By my calculations SS, L10 and Production are generally 20-25% faster than Revo with an apples to apples comparison, so weighing Revo points won't really change the outcome much.

I started shooting revo because I hated chasing brass, and now I'm so far down the path I can't seem to stop. I've tried SS, Production and Limited and end up shooting revo again.  It would be nice to have a recognized "Locap" division, but I don't think it will change revo participation much.   

Jason

 

[Fishbreath]

50 minutes ago, RJH said:

You could shoot 8 shot major with your revolver. It would work out fine

 

Not really; giving up at least a second per reload and shooting all DA doesn't make up for the loss points. It isn't like against like, which is (to me) the goal of a division system.

[Fishbreath]

28 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

Honestly, I don't think revo  really belongs in USPSA.  USPSA is a  high speed, high capacity and  technology driven sport and will continue to evolve along that path as far as rules will allow.

 

Where else does it belong? USPSA, for better or worse, is the 800lb gorilla. Driving six hours at minimum to find a revolver match is not really an option for me; at least the USPSA classification system lets me shoot against something when nobody else is around, and it's not like there are going to be oodles of ICORE matches popping up to take up the slack if USPSA Revolver goes away. The premier handgun competition organization in the US not having a place for one of two top-level types of handgun seems wrong to me, even if the top dogs are all somewhere else.

 

I only have so much time to spend on competition, and although I have fun at competitions and during practice, I look at it as a competition first, not just a leisure activity. It would stink to have to give up wheelguns, but a 25% handicap over one of the semiautos in my safe and nowhere else to shoot would do it for me.

[Makicjf]

48 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Where else does it belong? USPSA, for better or worse, is the 800lb gorilla. Driving six hours at minimum to find a revolver match is not really an option for me; at least the USPSA classification system lets me shoot against something when nobody else is around, and it's not like there are going to be oodles of ICORE matches popping up to take up the slack if USPSA Revolver goes away. The premier handgun competition organization in the US not having a place for one of two top-level types of handgun seems wrong to me, even if the top dogs are all somewhere else.

 

I only have so much time to spend on competition, and although I have fun at competitions and during practice, I look at it as a competition first, not just a leisure activity. It would stink to have to give up wheelguns, but a 25% handicap over one of the semiautos in my safe and nowhere else to shoot would do it for me.

When I said "20-25%" difference I was not suggesting giving revo shooters a 25% "bonus".  I've noted, that given shooters of similar skills, a revo tends to be 20-25% slower over the course of a match compared to production and SS.  If I was equally skilled with a revo and a 1911 (regrettably, I'm not certain I'm very skilled with either..;)   )  I'd perform 20-25% better with a 1911 if I shot the same match twice with equal performances.

     If ( a very hypothetical "if") the locap divisions were merged as a 8 shot major, 10 shot minor division, scoring revo major regardless of PF would make them slightly ( 3-5% by my best guess) more comparable.   I don't think it will happen, I just thought it might be interesting.

   A revo will always be outclassed when courses of fire exceed capacity compared to an auto loader.   The ethos of USPSA does not gel with a slow reloading, low capacity weapon.  I'm thankful there is a division which allows me to shoot my revolver, but in many ways, my 627 is an anachronism.  

JMO,

Jason

[StevenR]

17 hours ago, AHI said:

Would like to see a  open division. Like Icore. My eyesight just doesn't allow open sights any more.

I don't see where open (optics/comp) is that big of an advantage in revolver, so sticking them in open division seems wrong.  Putting them in revolver would be preferable to open, if creating another division is unacceptable.

[Fishbreath]

24 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

 A revo will always be outclassed when courses of fire exceed capacity compared to an auto loader.   The ethos of USPSA does not gel with a slow reloading, low capacity weapon.  I'm thankful there is a division which allows me to shoot my revolver, but in many ways, my 627 is an anachronism.  

 

An 8-round 1911 is also outclassed by an Open blaster and is an anachronism. The Open blaster itself is, too, for that matter—outside of competition, the 1911-style action is not exactly unknown, but not really cutting-edge, either. The way the USPSA rules are written doesn't leave a ton of room for innovation outside of the structure the rules imposed... but that's not a bad thing.

 

USPSA is a game, and a game needs stable rules. Changing the rules to chase the most recent hotness is not a winning formula. Chess is still chess. Stock cars in racing have near-zero resemblance to actual, stock road cars anymore, but NASCAR is still popular, and wouldn't be as interesting if they switched to little turbocharged four-cylinder engines from giant naturally-aspirated pushrod V8s.

 

Revolver (and Single Stack, and even Production, to a degree) are the stock car series in USPSA: limited by rule to various obsolete, obsolescent, or less-than-ideal platforms, but pushed to the edge regardless. The rules are part of the fun. Not every division has to be wide-open, and we don't have to kill the divisions with limits just because they have them.

 

As a practical matter, optic+comp revolver is impossible anyway without breaking the classification system. It would be substantially faster than irons revolver (look at the times for the ICORE 2020 postal match: the tenth-fastest Open shooter did four stages in 103 seconds; the tenth fastest Limited shooter took 115), and there aren't enough revolver shooters out there to establish new baselines.

[kmc]

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

 

The premier handgun competition organization in the US not having a place for one of two top-level types of handgun seems wrong to me, even if the top dogs are all somewhere else.

+1

[UpYoursPal]

8 round major seems like the most logical choice and wouldn't break too many hearts.  It would at least make those four-target arrays much less painful

[Fishbreath]

3 minutes ago, UpYoursPal said:

8 round major seems like the most logical choice and wouldn't break too many hearts.  It would at least make those four-target arrays much less painful

 

I wouldn't hate it (maybe a little, because it means I'd have to go find a powder and a recipe and brass for .357, and I just bought $60 of Clay Dot for .38 Short), but I bet all of the 929 guys would be a bit miffed.

 

I'm still unconvinced that there's a problem that needs solving here, though. As it stands, Revolver as a division is not in a bad place, rules-wise. (A little rough for six-guns, but that's the price we pay for shooting revolvers in a semi-auto world.) Maybe it is in a bad place participation-wise, but I feel like that's been true for longer than I've been shooting, and I have a hard time believing that rules changes would do anything to bring new blood in. If you want to shoot a dot and a comp, you can! If I came across someone braving Open with a revolver, I'd absolutely score myself against them in the match video. I'm just not seeing why I ought to have to score myself against them in the actual standings.

[UpYoursPal]

Is it that hard to do 9 major in a revolver?  Honest question because I certainly haven't tried.

[Fishbreath]

2 minutes ago, UpYoursPal said:

Is it that hard to do 9 major in a revolver?  Honest question because I certainly haven't tried.

 

It's my understanding that it's not hard to do once (resulting in a blown-up cylinder):

 

Not sure about the 9mm GP100s, but I wouldn't want to be the first one to try it.

[Racinready300ex]

41 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

 

As a practical matter, optic+comp revolver is impossible anyway without breaking the classification system. 

 

I take it you weren't around when they added 8 shot minor and everyone was busting out GM runs on all the 8 round classifiers that no longer needed a reload. 

[Fishbreath]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I take it you weren't around when they added 8 shot minor and everyone was busting out GM runs on all the 8 round classifiers that no longer needed a reload. 

 

Nope (I started shooting competitively a year or two after 2014), but that's exactly the thing I think is worth avoiding in the future. (See also PCC shooting turn-and-draw classifiers against the Open times for a year.)

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Just me, although there are 2-3 others who shoot nearby, with whom I cross paths a few times a year.

 

 

I don't mean a match afterward, I mean an ICORE match that uses the same stages as the USPSA event, concurrently. Submit your scores to both places. It would require changes to the ICORE rules, I suspect, but it also means that any USPSA match can almost automatically be an ICORE match, and if you really want to shoot a dot/comp revolver without being scored against the division where a dot/comp revolver belongs in USPSA (Open), then you have the option of doing so.

 

I just don't want to have to go out and buy another dot, and have my Ruger drilled and tapped, and go through all the extra hassle a dot adds, for the sake of going slightly faster, especially since there are twenty years of classifier scores for wheelguns already, and adding dots will make it super-easy to climb the ranks for a year or two until USPSA adjusts the scores (which I don't trust them to do correctly the first time).

I get your match issue now, the problem would be the logistics of 2 separate scoring systems and an easy way of disseminating the info.  If a club wished to try that and then petition ICORE to account for it in their rules, I wouldn't doubt they might take a swing.  The problem is at the Club Level and R.O.ing it.  My solution was to keep some, or all, of the COF's and put up new D1's and shoot after the USPSA match.  The downside for the Revo's is we have to put everything up by ourselves.  Another issue with some of the larger clubs is there would be no time to do it afterwards.

Yes I like Ruger's but they don't readily take a Dot and they are becoming more popular, and your issue is a prime reason to not do it.

[MikeBurgess]

To all the talk of how to do a combined division or make revo more competitive, how about combined low cam and add a category for revolver, like we have for Senior Junior ect. in this case its a self imposed choice as apposed to age, gender or occupation. lets face it Revos are not popular at USPSA matches and never will be you could change the rules 1000 times and it still wont be, they are hard to shoot well slow to reload and expensive nothing you can do with the rules will fix that. there will always be a few of us looking for an extra challenge and that's fine but as a division it doesn't make much sense in this game. 

 

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

So everybody knows I'm just having fun I don't really care what anybody shoots. I am against adding any more divisions though, and wouldn't be broken hearted if they combined revolver, L10, single stack, and production all-in-one 8 round major 10-round minor division

I really wasn't taking you very serious as it seemed to me you aren't a Revolver Competitor.  And I am definitely NOT advocating adding a Division.

Actually the Combined thing, if kept to 6 major 8 minor I can hear the other Divisions wailing already though LOL, wouldn't be a reason to stop me competing with a Revolver.

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I'd be a little peeved if they put Revolver in the hypothetical Locap Irons division, myself. L10/SS/Prod are all very similar, and scoring them heads up doesn't seriously screw anybody over. Not so with wheelguns—if anything, it's a worse idea than pskys2's (sorry), at least in terms of needlessly forcing people to buy new guns.

 

I don't care what people shoot either, but I also support a division system that matches like against like.

 

While we're talking about division condensing and moderately silly ideas, the results from Area 6 suggest that you could do a Carry Optics+Limited division by allowing irons+major and slide-mount optic+minor—if you score CO/Lim as a separate match, there are 4 Limited shooters above 90%, and 4 Carry Optics shooters above 90%.

Actually well put.  I don't take offense at the judgment on my suggestion, I doubt very much if it will be done or even well received.  I've never shied from being unpopular and speaking my mind, I just try to be respectful. 

There was a lot of anguish over CO's.  And look at it now!

 

[Fishbreath]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

To all the talk of how to do a combined division or make revo more competitive, how about combined low cam and add a category for revolver

 

I'd probably still stop shooting it. It's not just that it's a cool gun and added challenge, it's that I have a system for measuring my own progress that doesn't involve a huge self-inflicted handicap. It's harder than semi-auto, but I'm only judged against people who also choose the harder path. "Okay, shoot classifiers and matches at semi-auto speed, or be uncompetitive with your division!" is an active reduction in competitive equity, and requires breaking from the status quo to boot.

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

You could shoot 8 shot major with your revolver. It would work out fine

 

Combining limited and carry-ops would be fine with me. But those are the two largest divisions and probably the two that need the least amount of tweaking. It would seem more prudent to lump together divisions that no one shoots so at least there is a chance of having a competition at a competition

FWIW I was competing, and even made Master, when it was Heads Up and NO Divisions.  Of course I didn't use a Revolver either!  I do miss those days though where it was run what you brung against anything anyone else had.  But I enjoy Revolver even more now.  Go figure, eh.

[PatJones]

1 hour ago, StevenR said:

I don't see where open (optics/comp) is that big of an advantage in revolver, so sticking them in open division seems wrong.  Putting them in revolver would be preferable to open, if creating another division is unacceptable.

Why is everyone allergic to shooting anything but a 2011 in open? Open is "open", that is the place for things that do not fit the "limited" rules in other divisions. If you want recognition for every possible combination of firearms and optics, we have steel challenge for that.

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, Makicjf said:

This, in many ways, makes a lot of sense to me.     

Honestly, I don't think revo  really belongs in USPSA.  USPSA is a  high speed, high capacity and  technology driven sport and will continue to evolve along that path as far as rules will allow.  I'm just glad I have a place to shoot.   Locally,  production and ss is nearly as dead as revo for the above reason.   Giving the lo-cap guys a place to shoot with a degree of parity could be beneficial.  

Why not score Revo 8 shot major, but only require minor, to increase parity to a degree?   By my calculations SS, L10 and Production are generally 20-25% faster than Revo with an apples to apples comparison, so weighing Revo points won't really change the outcome much.

I started shooting revo because I hated chasing brass, and now I'm so far down the path I can't seem to stop. I've tried SS, Production and Limited and end up shooting revo again.  It would be nice to have a recognized "Locap" division, but I don't think it will change revo participation much.   

Jason

 

It does seem addictive doesn't it?

[Fishbreath]

1 minute ago, pskys2 said:

Actually well put.  I don't take offense at the judgment on my suggestion, I doubt very much if it will be done or even well received.  I've never shied from being unpopular and speaking my mind, I just try to be respectful. 

 

There was a lot of anguish over CO's.  And look at it now!

 

I aspire to respectfulness myself, and hope I'm living up to the aspiration. (Please let me know if I'm not; I feel strongly about the rules-stability issue, but don't want to hack anyone off unnecessarily!)

 

If the choice is between comps+dots or eliminating Revolver as a division, well, I'm pretty sure I'll be ringing up a gunsmith for some drilling and porting. I wouldn't like it (well, I wouldn't like it until I got to shoot the sci-fi revolver blaster for the first time, at which point I'm sure I'd be grinning like an idiot at how much easier it is), but better to have the option than not.

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, UpYoursPal said:

Is it that hard to do 9 major in a revolver?  Honest question because I certainly haven't tried.

Yes, there are a few 929's I've heard of that are in pieces due to the attempt.

[pskys2]

8 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I aspire to respectfulness myself, and hope I'm living up to the aspiration. (Please let me know if I'm not; I feel strongly about the rules-stability issue, but don't want to hack anyone off unnecessarily!)

 

If the choice is between comps+dots or eliminating Revolver as a division, well, I'm pretty sure I'll be ringing up a gunsmith for some drilling and porting. I wouldn't like it (well, I wouldn't like it until I got to shoot the sci-fi revolver blaster for the first time, at which point I'm sure I'd be grinning like an idiot at how much easier it is), but better to have the option than not.

I like that spirit! 

Actually I'm happy with it as it is now, I have a harder time with a dot than Irons in USPSA shooting.  But my preferences, or abilities, take second place to my ideals.   And the dot is becoming so popular that it might be a time to consider it.  Though I do admit to being fascinated with gadgets and the thought of putting a Comp on my Revolver kind of gives me the shivers but doubt if it would help me one iota!

[pskys2]

Heck I'm impressed that 29 people voted!  And a large group of the usual suspects haven't even weighed in.  Probably because they've seen/heard this spiel before and are practicing for the next big match!  Which I should be too!