Open up USPSA Revolver Division Poll

[MikeBurgess]

31 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Why is everyone allergic to shooting anything but a 2011 in open? Open is "open", that is the place for things that do not fit the "limited" rules in other divisions. If you want recognition for every possible combination of firearms and optics, we have steel challenge for that.

I think the big problem is the 90+% of USPSA shooters are Participant not Competitors and most of them do not understand the difference and believe they are competitors. 

in revo specifically there are probably only 5 or 6 competitors in the whole country, the rest of us are various skill level participants, myself included. 

[Makicjf]

14 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think the big problem is the 90+% of USPSA shooters are Participant not Competitors and most of them do not understand the difference and believe they are competitors. 

in revo specifically there are probably only 5 or 6 competitors in the whole country, the rest of us are various skill level participants, myself included. 

That is the truth!

Jason

[Makicjf]

16 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think the big problem is the 90+% of USPSA shooters are Participant not Competitors and most of them do not understand the difference and believe they are competitors. 

in revo specifically there are probably only 5 or 6 competitors in the whole country, the rest of us are various skill level participants, myself included. 

 I know I'll never be a competitor, but I sure enjoy trying to improve!

Jason

Edited April 19, 2021 by Makicjf

[MikeBurgess]

12 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

 I know I'll never be a competitor, but I sure enjoy trying to improve!

Jason

I do as well but I also understand that if I shoot my open revo at a uspsa match Ill be in open and that's fine, no I'm not competitive with shooters of equal skill in open division shooting a better suited gun, but I'm there having fun and I can always look at the combined results to see how I did in general.

 

I get very tired of people going I have a dao sig 220 with a frame mounted optic and 7 round mags, and I won't shoot open because I'm not competitive, so I need a division where that gun is.  News flash I can give you a 2011 and you still wont be competitive. 

 

ps  this weekend I shot a carry gun at minor in open this weekend, came in second would have been a easy division win with a real gun and holster, winning shooter had fun, I had fun, win win in my book 

 

no hate sent your way just kinda rambled on with that sorry

Edited April 19, 2021 by MikeBurgess
rude

[Fishbreath]

42 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

 

I think the big problem is the 90+% of USPSA shooters are Participant not Competitors and most of them do not understand the difference and believe they are competitors. 

in revo specifically there are probably only 5 or 6 competitors in the whole country, the rest of us are various skill level participants, myself included. 

 

I disagree with this entirely. Participant/competitor is a mindset thing, not a skill thing.

 

Two guys who go golfing, crack a beer or two at the turn, and generally have a good time are participating. Two guys who join their local course's golf league and play the full season seriously are competitors, even if they're not winning PGA Tour events.

 

There's nothing wrong with either of those ways of thinking, but I want consistent rules and a scoring system that isn't facially unfair to me because I approach USPSA as a sport to compete in, not an activity to participate in.

[MikeBurgess]

33 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I disagree with this entirely. Participant/competitor is a mindset thing, not a skill thing.

 

Two guys who go golfing, crack a beer or two at the turn, and generally have a good time are participating. Two guys who join their local course's golf league and play the full season seriously are competitors, even if they're not winning PGA Tour events.

 

There's nothing wrong with either of those ways of thinking, but I want consistent rules and a scoring system that isn't facially unfair to me because I approach USPSA as a sport to compete in, not an activity to participate in.

Ok I can agree with that somewhat, being competitive with your friends is cool.

 

I will ask does your local course have different divisions for those using feather balls and wooden clubs? are there equipment divisions at all? if not bad example

 

My point is if your there to "compete" with your friends why do you need a special equipment division to do it in? most of the time I'm racing with shooters in other divisions anyway. 

 

 

[Fishbreath]

55 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I will ask does your local course have different divisions for those using feather balls and wooden clubs? are there equipment divisions at all? if not bad example

 

Auto racing, then. I could buy a late 90s Miata and race in a Miata spec series at the local track, or rent a kart and do the same. It may be a less prestigious competition than Formula One, but it's no less a competition.

 

I think this example cuts the other way, too—the only argument for eliminating Revolver that doesn't apply to eliminating divisions altogether is popularity, and I don't think that's a great basis on which to be making decisions for a sport with at best 30,000 serious, active competitors. Or participants.

 

58 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

My point is if your there to "compete" with your friends why do you need a special equipment division to do it in? most of the time I'm racing with shooters in other divisions anyway. 

 

It's not that I'm 'competing' with my friends, it's that I'm approaching USPSA in its entirely as a competition. That means I do have to measure myself against people in other divisions a lot of the time, but it also means that there's a framework (the classification system) that lets me measure myself against fellow revolver shooters. Finally, when there are other revolvers locally, it means that, for the score that counts, I'm shooting against people who have elected, under the rules we've established as an organization, to compete under the same restrictions and limitations I do.

 

It's like playing a game of hockey, then having one side's net replaced with a soccer goal and saying it's the same game, why don't you still like it?

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

Ok I can agree with that somewhat, being competitive with your friends is cool.

 

I will ask does your local course have different divisions for those using feather balls and wooden clubs? are there equipment divisions at all? if not bad example

 

My point is if your there to "compete" with your friends why do you need a special equipment division to do it in? most of the time I'm racing with shooters in other divisions anyway. 

 

 

In reality there are maybe a dozen shooters Nationally who show up and can be expected to win "any" Division they enter.  If any of them show up shooting Revolver they would also be contenders.  There are the same number in Revolver Division that are the same within Revolver Division and a sub set of them can also be contenders in other Divisions.   All probably would "if" they put the time in.

I think you actually are confusing Participant, Competitor and Contender.  At different levels I, II or III the percentages will vary a lot.  At the Club Level I'd say maybe 50%+ are Participants and 40% are Competitors and 10% are Contenders (for their area).

10% of GM's are true National Contenders, everyone else between them and into A Class are definitely Competitors.  And there are more than a few who are B and C class that I know that take it seriously and compete within their Class and strive to move up.

[Fishbreath]

12 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

I think you actually are confusing Participant, Competitor and Contender. 

Very well said!

[Carmoney]

On 4/18/2021 at 8:18 PM, RJH said:

You forgot the option of "eliminate  revolver so the rest of us can get done before midnight"  

 

I thought it would be interesting to see how skilled a shooter RJH happens to be, so I googled his name (as listed in his BE profile) with the terms USPSA and results, and got back absolutely nothing.  It doesn't appear this person is even an active USPSA competitor.  If I missed something, I'm sure he'll jump back in and correct me.  If not, then he's just another internet troll.  

[RJH]

16 minutes ago, Carmoney said:

 

I thought it would be interesting to see how skilled a shooter RJH happens to be, so I googled his name (as listed in his BE profile) with the terms USPSA and results, and got back absolutely nothing.  It doesn't appear this person is even an active USPSA competitor.  If I missed something, I'm sure he'll jump back in and correct me.  If not, then he's just another internet troll.  

 

A53155

 

Just a 15 or so year  hack, 7 division classified, but A class single stack is the best i have ever done.  Made B class in revolver with a gp 100 minor with speed loaders, that was back before 8 minor became a thing.  I even renewed my membership a few months ago LOL.  

 

Hell, I've even shot a revolver in 3 gun.  So don't get your feathers ruffled, it ain't my fault revolver has no participation, it is just that revolver sucks compared to all other divisions

[MikeBurgess]

13 hours ago, pskys2 said:

 

I think you actually are confusing Participant, Competitor and Contender.  At different levels I, II or III the percentages will vary a lot.  At the Club Level I'd say maybe 50%+ are Participants and 40% are Competitors and 10% are

I'll cop to this to an extent. Personally I view myself as a reasonably good participant, I know what it take to be anything even remotely resembling a contender and I don't have the desire to do that so I compete with my friends and whoever wins wins and that's fine.

 

14 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

Auto racing, then. I could buy a late 90s Miata and race in a Miata spec series at the local track, or rent a kart and do the same. It may be a less prestigious competition than Formula One, but it's no less a competition.

excellent example, you can race a in a Miata spec class but not at a NASCAR event, there are separate organizations Like USPSA and ICORE 

 

14 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

I think this example cuts the other way, too—the only argument for eliminating Revolver that doesn't apply to eliminating divisions altogether is popularity, and I don't think that's a great basis on which to be making decisions for a sport with at best 30,000 serious, active competitors. Or participants.

I don't think Revo is the only division problem, I think you hit the nail on the head here, with such a small organization splitting the 30k members into ever smaller and less significant groups is bad for competition in general. 

 

If I were king for a day regular matches would end up with maybe 4 divisions something like OPEN (pistols major or minor PCCs minor only run what you brung) Iron (no dot no comp run what you brung) Tactical (CO but without the optic requirement) Low cap (SS L10, Prod, Revo) or something similar. But I would allow within the rules for organizers to host special matches with non standard equipment restrictions, like want to host a special Revo match with 6shot 8 shot and open Revo divisions, Or like the old SS Classic that in turn became SS division, go for it run the special match just publish the equipment requirements and have fun. This would be the best of both worlds regular matches with enough shooters in each division for them to actually have competition and special matches for the fringe equipment.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

18 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Nope (I started shooting competitively a year or two after 2014), but that's exactly the thing I think is worth avoiding in the future. (See also PCC shooting turn-and-draw classifiers against the Open times for a year.)

 

Right so between how CO was just Prod numbers, PCC was Open, 8 shot revo was based on 6 shot guns. Lots of SS numbers were just Limited numbers. The last thing that would be considered in a rule change is the effect on classifiers. 

 

What several Revo guys did when 8 shot thing came out was just shoot L-10 at locals so they wouldn't get bumped in classification. Then shoot Revo at majors. Simple work around. 

[pskys2]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Right so between how CO was just Prod numbers, PCC was Open, 8 shot revo was based on 6 shot guns. Lots of SS numbers were just Limited numbers. The last thing that would be considered in a rule change is the effect on classifiers. 

 

What several Revo guys did when 8 shot thing came out was just shoot L-10 at locals so they wouldn't get bumped in classification. Then shoot Revo at majors. Simple work around. 

Aw shucks most of the older classifier HF's were set by JM.  Even after the 8 shot minor and some new ones he still shot many.  That curve pretty much kept most of us mortals in our place!

I kept shooting normally and for some strange reason didn't improve my Classification standing at all with an 8 shot?  And it wasn't on purpose I promise.

I quit worrying about my Class, some say I have none though I think that's a more "personal" issue?, many years ago.  I'd much rather do well in, or win, my class than have a GM, or even an M, in that column.

 

I do take it seriously though, with practice, equipment and the mental game as far as I can within my budget, time and personal life allowances.  

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Aw shucks most of the older classifier HF's were set by JM.  Even after the 8 shot minor and some new ones he still shot many.  That curve pretty much kept most of us mortals in our place!

I kept shooting normally and for some strange reason didn't improve my Classification standing at all with an 8 shot?  And it wasn't on purpose I promise.

I quit worrying about my Class, some say I have none though I think that's a more "personal" issue?, many years ago.  I'd much rather do well in, or win, my class than have a GM, or even an M, in that column.

 

I do take it seriously though, with practice, equipment and the mental game as far as I can within my budget, time and personal life allowances.  

 

That was kind of the point, people didn't want to get bumped they'd rather compete in their class. You would be the first person I've ever heard of who can't shoot a 8 shot classifier better with a 8 shot gun vs a 6 shot gun. At the time I remember hundoing a 8 shot classifier and emailing HQ to get it not counted. I personally didn't want to move up because HQ didn't consider the effect on classification. 

 

My only point is based on past experiences I don't expect HQ is worried about the effect changing divisions rules has on the classification system. Probably the reason people joke about how many MA's there are in CO and GM's in PCC.

[pskys2]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That was kind of the point, people didn't want to get bumped they'd rather compete in their class. You would be the first person I've ever heard of who can't shoot a 8 shot classifier better with a 8 shot gun vs a 6 shot gun. At the time I remember hundoing a 8 shot classifier and emailing HQ to get it not counted. I personally didn't want to move up because HQ didn't consider the effect on classification. 

 

My only point is based on past experiences I don't expect HQ is worried about the effect changing divisions rules has on the classification system. Probably the reason people joke about how many MA's there are in CO and GM's in PCC.

Oh don't get me wrong I do shoot my 627 better than the 625, both as a platform and due to the 8 shots.  What I was trying to say is it didn't affect my Classifier Scores.  The percentages stayed pretty close to the same.  Some due to my natural inclination of the Hero or Zero attack on club classifiers.  Yet at major matches I tend to be more measured on all of the stages, even classifiers, so fewer Zero's and virtually no Hero's.

My thought is the classifiers that rewarded 8 shot, think Melody Line, were a throw away for a 6 shooter and the ones that were neutral, think El Presidente, didn't reward an 8 shot.  So for anyone, like myself, who has dozens of Classifier Scores it evened out.  Those with only a few could see a difference depending on the make up of the COF.  As one gets more under their belt things tend to level out.  One reason why the classification system allows a competitor to "drop" their classification by petition.

But for various reasons there are paper classifications for many that belie their true skill level.  And don't even start going down the road of how aging will affect us, I'm trying to not think of it right now!

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

excellent example, you can race a in a Miata spec class but not at a NASCAR event, there are separate organizations Like USPSA and ICORE 

 

This ignores that USPSA already has a revolver class. If I ran Fishbreath International Autosport and allowed stock cars and Miatas to race on the same track but with separate placement (cf. endurance racing), then said not enough people were racing Miatas to justify separate timing but they can still race heads up with the stock cars, the Miata drivers would be right to tell me off.

 

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

splitting the 30k members into ever smaller and less significant groups is bad for competition in general. 

 

I've seen this said multiple times in multiple places, and I simply don't agree. People know where the heat is. Declaring a Revolver champion out of 50-some nationals attendees doesn't cheapen the declaration of an Open champion out of same, and I have a hard time picturing a reason for thinking so that doesn't come down to ego.

 

There's effectively zero cost to keeping an existing division in place, and if Steel Challenge demonstrates anything, it's not competitive dilution. Look at the 2021 championship results. It's the same names in the top few spots across every division. The cream rises to the top either way.

 

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

The last thing that would be considered in a rule change is the effect on classifiers. 

 

It's not my fault that the organization doesn't recognize that a stable classification system is possibly its single greatest asset, and keeps on trying to ruin it.

[Racinready300ex]

52 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

I've seen this said multiple times in multiple places, and I simply don't agree. People know where the heat is. Declaring a Revolver champion out of 50-some nationals attendees doesn't cheapen the declaration of an Open champion out of same, and I have a hard time picturing a reason for thinking so that doesn't come down to ego.

 

 

Picture IDPA.

[Fishbreath]

56 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Picture IDPA.

 

USPSA would need more divisions than Steel Challenge before it even gets close to the same number of competitors per division as IDPA.

 

I don't see any reason to add divisions—I've said before, though maybe not here, that if I were USPSA president, I would commit to not even considering adding divisions until I'd doubled membership—but I also see no reason at all to remove them, with the exception of historical anomaly Limited 10.

[MWP]

See my post in “USPSA Revolver Division” thread. It applies to this well. 

[Alleycatdad]

20 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

USPSA would need more divisions than Steel Challenge before it even gets close to the same number of competitors per division as IDPA.

 

I don't see any reason to add divisions—I've said before, though maybe not here, that if I were USPSA president, I would commit to not even considering adding divisions until I'd doubled membership—but I also see no reason at all to remove them, with the exception of historical anomaly Limited 10.

Limited 10 may be nice to have ready to go depending on current events.  It's easy to dismiss it if you're not in a magazine-limited state or you're not worried about breaking the law, but a federal restriction could change that for new competitors....

 

Just sayin.

 

SA

[MWP]

30 minutes ago, Alleycatdad said:

Limited 10 may be nice to have ready to go depending on current events.  It's easy to dismiss it if you're not in a magazine-limited state or you're not worried about breaking the law, but a federal restriction could change that for new competitors....

 

Just sayin.

 

SA

What states specifically? 
 

If limited 10 actually had a place and was needed, we would need open 10, pcc 10 and co 10. 

[pskys2]

2 hours ago, Alleycatdad said:

Limited 10 may be nice to have ready to go depending on current events.  It's easy to dismiss it if you're not in a magazine-limited state or you're not worried about breaking the law, but a federal restriction could change that for new competitors....

 

Just sayin.

 

SA

The conundrum with L10 if it becomes a Fed Law with no sunshine is it is moot, as Open, Limited and CO would all be 10 rounds! 

[MikeyScuba]

1 hour ago, MWP said:

What states specifically? 
 

If limited 10 actually had a place and was needed, we would need open 10, pcc 10 and co 10. 

Welcome to my world. Stage planning is a lot of reload here, here and there.

[MWP]

4 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

The conundrum with L10 if it becomes a Fed Law with no sunshine is it is moot, as Open, Limited and CO would all be 10 rounds! 

And the rule book specifically calls out law trumps the games rules, so if possession isn’t permitted, those divisions are 10 rounds already.