USPSA Rules in SCSA

[apoc4lypse]

I was browsing the USPSA rule forum and they had quite a few handling rules that don't seem to be included in the SCSA rule book.

 

The one I'm wondering about is putting on/taking off your rig outside of a safety area.  Under USPSA rules, this is a DQ, but under SCSA rules, this seems to be okay so long as your handgun remains in its holster.

 

Are the SCSA rules the only ones that matter in a Steel Challenge match?  I would think so but odder things have happened, and SCSA is under the USPSA umbrella...

[xpierrat]

On 1/24/2021 at 2:57 AM, apoc4lypse said:

I was browsing the USPSA rule forum and they had quite a few handling rules that don't seem to be included in the SCSA rule book.

 

The one I'm wondering about is putting on/taking off your rig outside of a safety area.  Under USPSA rules, this is a DQ, but under SCSA rules, this seems to be okay so long as your handgun remains in its holster.

 

Are the SCSA rules the only ones that matter in a Steel Challenge match?  I would think so but odder things have happened, and SCSA is under the USPSA umbrella...

Hummmm where in SC rules do you see where it is permissible to take a belt/holster  with gun  off out side of a safe table????

[apoc4lypse]

There is a specific rule in USPSA that says it's not allowed.  There is no such rule in SCSA.

[zzt]

23 minutes ago, apoc4lypse said:

There is a specific rule in USPSA that says it's not allowed.  There is no such rule in SCSA.

 

Incorrect.  USPSA 10.5.1 and SCSA 8.1.1.1 say the same thing.

[apoc4lypse]

Is removing a holstered gun or belt rig considered unsafe gun handling?

 

This is the USPSA rule I'm referencing:

 

5.2.1.2

A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with

their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

Edited January 27, 2021 by apoc4lypse

[Sarge]

50 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Incorrect.  USPSA 10.5.1 and SCSA 8.1.1.1 say the same thing.

USPSA 5.2.1.1 says it's DQ to remove belt with gun in holster. SCSA has no such rule that I can find

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, xpierrat said:

Hummmm where in SC rules do you see where it is permissible to take a belt/holster  with gun  off out side of a safe table????

I don't see a rule that says it's not though.

 

[zzt]

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

USPSA 5.2.1.1 says it's DQ to remove belt with gun in holster. SCSA has no such rule that I can find

 

It's 5.2.1.2, but I take your point.  So here are some conflicting points of view.

 

Last year George Jones specifically said if the rule is not in the SCSA rule book, you cannot apply a USPSA rule.  You 'could' interpret that to mean it is permissible in SCSA.

 

However, no one would argue that it is not unsafe gun handling.  So I would DQ the shooter under 8.1.1.1.  The RM or RM/MD would be notified, as per rules,  and the shooter could dispute the DQ.

 

The fact that a specific thing is not explicitly prohibited does not mean it is allowed.  An example would be a shooter hurling a string of profanity at a Scoring RO.  That is not specifically covered in 8.4.1, but it is definitely unsportsman like conduct.

[apoc4lypse]

19 minutes ago, zzt said:

However, no one would argue that it is not unsafe gun handling.

 

If that were the case, then a specific rule about it wouldn't exist in USPSA, no?  The general rule of unsafe gun handling would have covered it under its umbrella.  Apparently it was common enough that a rule was added to address it speficially as a DQ-able offense.  Which begs the question, why was it left out of the SCSA rules?

[Sarge]

47 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

It's 5.2.1.2, but I take your point.  So here are some conflicting points of view.

 

Last year George Jones specifically said if the rule is not in the SCSA rule book, you cannot apply a USPSA rule.  You 'could' interpret that to mean it is permissible in SCSA.

 

However, no one would argue that it is not unsafe gun handling.  So I would DQ the shooter under 8.1.1.1.  The RM or RM/MD would be notified, as per rules,  and the shooter could dispute the DQ.

 

The fact that a specific thing is not explicitly prohibited does not mean it is allowed.  An example would be a shooter hurling a string of profanity at a Scoring RO.  That is not specifically covered in 8.4.1, but it is definitely unsportsman like conduct.

10.6 not in SCSA rules.? I am unable to check now

[Sarge]

23 minutes ago, apoc4lypse said:

 

If that were the case, then a specific rule about it wouldn't exist in USPSA, no?  The general rule of unsafe gun handling would have covered it under its umbrella.  Apparently it was common enough that a rule was added to address it speficially as a DQ-able offense.  Which begs the question, why was it left out of the SCSA rules?

If you notice there are several differences. I would think, for ease of use, both rule sets should be as near identical as is practical, to include paragraph numbering etc.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

10.6 not in SCSA rules.? I am unable to check now

 

USPSA 10.6 is SCSA 8.4.  It would be difficult to have the same paragraph numbering, because so much of USPSA does not apply to SCSA.

 

1 hour ago, apoc4lypse said:

Apparently it was common enough that a rule was added to address it speficially as a DQ-able offense.

 

At RO training we were told that enumeration was added because people were going into a port-a-potty and then removing their belt.   We were instructed that if we heard a velcro rip from inside one, the shooter was DQ'd if they came out with a gun in the holster.  I agree the general rule would have covered it.  It could also be clarified in the equipment section:  a pistol may be carried in a holster on your hip.  In all other circumstances it must be cased in......

 

I think it was not included in the SCSA rules because usage is different.  I cannot recall the last time I saw any shooter at an SCSA match actually carry their pistol in a holster.  Typically, they uncase after make ready, and case after hammer down, holster.  I actually do the same for USPSA.  I do not want to be running after a shooter with a 54 oz. Open gun hanging on my hip.  Even though it is securely locked in, it still flops around a little.

Edited January 27, 2021 by zzt

[apoc4lypse]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

I think it was not included in the SCSA rules because usage is different.  I cannot recall the last time I saw any shooter at an SCSA match actually carry their pistol in a holster.  Typically, they uncase after make ready, and case after hammer down, holster.  I actually do the same for USPSA.  I do not want to be running after a shooter with a 54 oz. Open gun hanging on my hip.  Even though it is securely locked in, it still flops around a little.

 

Huh, that's odd to me.  In all the events I've attended, shooters using a holster always carried their gun in the holster throughout the match.  Only rimfire pistol folks used cases.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, apoc4lypse said:

 

Huh, that's odd to me.  In all the events I've attended, shooters using a holster always carried their gun in the holster throughout the match.  Only rimfire pistol folks used cases.

 

Maybe it's where I shoot; three SCSA clubs.  Why on earth would you carry your pistol around with you for the whole match if you didn't have to.  Especially in Winter.  Everyone throws a hand warmer in the gun case to keep the gun warm.  Even in Summer, again, why?  Maybe if you are shooting a weighs nothing plastic gun in a plastic holster you don't mind. 

 

UPSA is a different story.   When I shot Limited I kept the gun in the holster the entire time.  Same when I first started shooting Open.  When I became an RO, I still did, but changed a year or so ago.  Now I hand the case to the scoring RO, or a friend after MR.  After the HDH I recase.  More and more Open shooters are doing that now.  I'm told that was pretty standard back in the day for Open shooters.

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, zzt said:

At RO training we were told that enumeration was added because people were going into a port-a-potty and then removing their belt.   We were instructed that if we heard a velcro rip from inside one, the shooter was DQ'd if they came out with a gun in the holster. 

wtf?

someone told you to listen to portapotties for velcro? I don't know whether to lol or turn you in to child protective services....

[Southpaw]

11 hours ago, zzt said:

At RO training we were told that enumeration was added because people were going into a port-a-potty and then removing their belt.   We were instructed that if we heard a velcro rip from inside one, the shooter was DQ'd if they came out with a gun in the holster.

 

[Jim Watson]

Interesting.  When I shoot RFPI, I started out wearing a holster and magazine pouch.  I am mostly a USPSA and IDPA shooter and that is where I expect to find my gun and ammo, not in a satchel.  When I shoot RFPO, I have to bag the gun with its old Tasco, but the ammo still goes on my belt.  More recently I have knuckled under and bagged my iron sight gun, too.

 

I don't shoot USPSA Open and I don't RO any more, and do not think a Limited or lesser gun is a burden on my belt 

[zzt]

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

someone told you to listen to portapotties for velcro?

 

The operative word was IF.  We were not told to listen for it.  It was IF we heard it.  We were also told it was the ROs duty to retrieve a gun dropped into a port-a-potty.  Evidently it had recently happened.  Yuck.

[motosapiens]

55 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

The operative word was IF.  We were not told to listen for it.  It was IF we heard it.  We were also told it was the ROs duty to retrieve a gun dropped into a port-a-potty.  Evidently it had recently happened.  Yuck.

 

what about velcro jacket closures, and pockets? What about pulling velcro apart slightly, but not removing the belt. Seems like rather than teaching people to jump to conclusions and invade privacy, it might be a better idea to just put porta-potties near safe tables and ask people to not do stupid stuff, and then stop worrying about it.

[zzt]

Well, for one thing, it would be impossible to drop your drawers to take a crap without first removing the belt.  So I can understand the instruction.  That isn't jumping to conclusions.  Since I've never see a potty within earshot of an active stage bay, I think the point moot.  You would actually have to be standing in line waiting your turn to have any chance of hearing that.  I like your idea of safe tables next to potties.  

[ZackJones]

Take what I say with a grain of salt because only DNROI makes the rules and rulings but here's my take on it and how I'd handle it as the RM: 

 

A centerfire competitor may not remove his holstered firearm and put in in a cart or backpack, etc. for transport. I realize there's no specific rule that that states that so let's assume a competitor does it. Now competitor moves to next stage and takes the holstered firearm out of the cart and puts it back on. In my mind a match DQ under rule 8.1.1.5 would be justification. I know the competitor didn't "drop" the firearm on the ground but they are technically retrieving it, unsupervised which is why I'd use 8.1.1.5 for the DQ. I will bring this up to DNROI's attention so something can be added to our rules in the next revision. 

 

[bigdawgbeav]

I'm NOT retrieving a pistol dropped in to the porta-potty... not gonna happen, ever.  Unless it's mine, then I'll figure it out, but even then it might be a lost cause.  All the more reason to have your stuff bagged when coming to the box as opposed to wearing it all day.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, bigdawgbeav said:

I'm NOT retrieving a pistol dropped in to the porta-potty... not gonna happen, ever.  Unless it's mine, then I'll figure it out, but even then it might be a lost cause. 

 

I wouldn't either.  I'd tell the shooter that since he was already DQ'd he can get the pistol himself.  If he argued I'd send him to the RM/MD.  It will never be mine, because there is no way on earth I'm going into a potty wearing a pistol.  BTW, the retrieval method suggested by the NROI Instructor was to get a 30 gallon trash bag to put over your arm, reach down and find the pistol, then hand it as is to the shooter.  Fat chance I'm doing that.  Plus, what are the chances of finding a 30 gal. trash bag at the shoot?

Edited February 1, 2021 by zzt

[RaylanGivens]

49 minutes ago, zzt said:

BTW, the retrieval method suggested by the NROI Instructor was to get a 30 gallon trash bag to put over your arm, reach down and find the pistol, then hand it as is to the shooter.  Fat chance I'm doing that.  Plus, what are the chances of finding a 30 gal. trash bag at the shoot?

 

That's too much...  I think these guys are having some fun at your expense...  No one would go in a porta potty after a gun unless it was (maybe) their gun.

 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I wouldn't either.  I'd tell the shooter that since he was already DQ'd he can get the pistol himself. 

But he hasn’t DQED. He dropped it outside a COF. If he picks it up then he’s DQED