Trigger Jobs In Production Division?

[ExtremeShot]

I'm trying to get a gun together for Production division. However, I'm getting differing information from everyone regarding what exactly can be done to your gun. Below are some examples...I appreciate your comments.

1) Triggers:

The 2004 rules that I just got in the mail when I joined say that the minimum trigger pull for the first shot is 5 lbs. However, there are several Production shooters at my club that compete in matches (including Area championships) that I know have had trigger jobs done that bring the poundage down below 5 lbs. I've also read about other people in other areas doing trigger jobs on their Production guns.

What's up with this? I know for a fact that these trigger jobs are resulting in less than 5 pound triggers. Are the range officials at the matches not checking? Is there some other rule that I missed that allows less than 5 lbs? Are all these people that I have been looking up to purposly breaking the rules?

2) Extended Mag releases:

After getting my Springfield XD, I noticed the mag release was short so I started investigating getting a longer one. In another coversation on the hs2000talk.com board there was a discussion about what was allowed and not allowed (see this link: http://www.hs2000talk.com/viewtopic.php?t=26808). In the coversation, it was said that if it comes from the custom shop, then it's OK. I thought there had to be a minium production run? If it is true that extended mags from the custom shop are OK, then the whole purpose of the Production division is defeated! If a gun with an extended mag release and trigger job comes from the custom shop, then it's no longer stock and the Production division is also in fact an equipment race.

3) Guide Rods

I know some people are switching out the hollow guide rods on the Springfield XD for solid guide rods that are more durable and a little heavier. This also doesn't sound "legal", however, it appears people are using them in USPSA matches.

I want to follow the rules, however, how am I to compete with the trigger jobs and special order equipment that is being used? I thought the Production division eliminated all this? I can understand some modifications are OK, but the trigger jobs appear to be blatant cheating?

Thanks for the comments,

DkM (new to USPSA)

Edited October 31, 2005 by ExtremeShot

[David Olhasso]

The rules you are referring to are the IPSC production rules. How much those rules were violated at the world shoot is a whole nother discussion.

Sinch you shoot USPSA, the rules are very different. USPSA production rules allow.

--trigger jobs. Any internal action job, no matter how light, is allowed

--internal modificaitons. So long as it is internal, have fun.

--+- 2oz internal weight changes. So a solid guide rod is totally legal so long as the wieght change from factory is not more than 2 oz.

--Replacement of parts with another FACTORY available part. So long as the factory sells the part, go for it. With the exception of add on muzzle wieghts, mag wells and the like. So the extended mag release and slide stop are legal.

--Any notch and post sight system whether the factory sells a similar version or not.

[XRe]

Read the US Production rules in Appendix D9. There's no minimum trigger pull - that's an International rule. A solid guide rod would be fine, as long as it doesn't raise the weight of the gun by more than 2oz over the factory spec weight.

Someone else can handle the mag release question

[bberkley]

You need to look at Appendix D9 in the USPSA Green Book.

The US has no minimum trigger pull requirement for Production Division, the IPSC rule does not apply.

You can use a solid guiderod, as long as the pistol isn't more than 2 ounces heavier than stock.

US APPENDIX D9

US Production Division

Special conditions:

17. Only handguns approved and listed on the USPSA website may be used in

Production Division.

18. Single-action-only handguns are prohibited.

19. Handgun may not be in single action mode at start signal.

20. Neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor any allied equipment

(e.g. magazines or other loading devices), can extend forward of the line

illustrated in Appendix F3. Any such items a Range Officer deems not to

be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule

6.2.5.1 will apply.

21. Allowed modifications are very limited and include the following:

21.1 No weighted attachments allowed to magazine.

21.2 Front sights may be trimmed, fiber optics inserted, adjusted and/or

have sight black applied. Sights must be of the notch and post type.

1 Minimum power factor for Major Not applicable

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354”) /

19mm (0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major Not applicable

6 Minimum trigger pull No

7 Maximum barrel length Yes, Production guns

5.5” Revolvers 8.5”

8 Maximum magazine length No

9 Maximum ammunition capacity Yes, 10 rounds

loaded maximum in

any magazine after

the start signal.

10 Max. distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders

from torso

50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies No

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment

Yes, see item 19

below.

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

16 Maximum weight Yes, 2 ounces over

factory specified

January 2004 Edition Rule Book • 97

98 • January 2004 Edition Rule Book

21.3 Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length is same as

original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not

allowed.

21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is

allowed.

21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed.

21.6 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for

the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape or rubber

sleeves is permitted. Modifications to grips, other than previously

mentioned, not allowed, such as grooves cut to reach mag release

or size reduction.

22. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will

be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

23. Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification:

ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used. All holsters must fully

cover the trigger when the pistol is holstered. The front of holsters for autos

may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port. Revolver holsters

may be cut no lower than half way down the cylinder.

Edited October 31, 2005 by bberkley

[ExtremeShot]

Ahhhh...now it makes sense. As I said, I'm new to USPSA.

Thanks!

DkM

PS: ....however, I still think this makes Production an equipment race.

The rules you are referring to are the IPSC production rules.

Edited October 31, 2005 by ExtremeShot

[Flexmoney]

I think Dave got just about everything right. He might have missed one aspect...

To answer the original question(s):

1. In USPSA Production, there is no minimum trigger pull weight.

2. There are no external modifications allowed to the Production guns. An exception to this is a factory part...however...the factory part must come from a gun that is also approved for USPSA Production Division. So, you can't just add an extended mag release, unless there is a Production legal model of the gun that has it already. (example: Glock 34's are approved and come with and exteneded mag release from the factory. G17's don't have the extended mag release. But, it is legal to put a G34 mag release into a G17.)

Custom Shop parts are NOT legal. (I think that is a difference between USPSA and IPSC Production.)

3. Changing of guide rods is an "internal modification". As Dave mentioned, it is allowed...as long as the guns total weight never increases more than 2oz. over stock.

[Vlad]

Ahhhh...now it makes sense. As I said, I'm new to USPSA.

Thanks!

DkM

PS: ....however, I still think this makes Production an equipment race.

The rules you are referring to are the IPSC production rules.

Well thats sort of a can of worms. Without getting into a IPSC vs USPSA argument (which we have had pleanty of, some on this very issue), as long as we have competition there will be an equimpent race. There are two possible ways to do it and IPSC and USPSA have chosen the opposite possition. In my opinion, in USPSA production there is a race of who can trick out the inside of their guns more. In IPSC production, the race is which manufacturer make a gun "gooder" for the game (see recent drama surounding the SP01, Tanfoglio and Spinx guns and God knows what else).

The IPSC mind set is that production should really be honest to god, not tricks, out of the box, dont even apply a sticker, out of the box stock production gun. It is an admirable goal but it hands the race over to the manufacturers. It also means that while most "real guns" dont have 5lb triggers, manufacturers will make race guns for production which will have 5lb triggers and a host of other features aimed at the production division, weather or not those guns make sense in the real world.

The USPSA way, is to admit that gun owners like to tinker. I've slightly modified every gun I owned, before I even seen an USPSA match. The honest truth is that most production guns have crummy triggers, bad sights, and most could use better grips. I've always thought it was silly to tell a new shooter "Sorry your gun has a bad feature which makes it suck for practical shooting. You need to buy gun XXX made for this game. Well, you could spend $100 bucks on a trigger job and make it work just fine, but that would be an equipment race, so go buy this $700 gun instead"

The more important issue to my mind is that of enforcement. The fact is that you often can't tell if a gun had a trigger job. Heck, sometimes even the factory gets one right. You can have 2 guns come of the production line next to each other with 10lb difference in trigger pull. How the heck is the RO to enforce that rule? No internal modification? Okie.. I want to see match officials striping down every competitors gun while armed with micrometers and accurate scales. Those things aren't very likely and thus some people will cheat. ALWAYS. Just ask Dave about his acid reflux inducing experiences with IPSC rule enforcement.

I think it makes a lot more sense to limit the changes one can make to a production gun and let owners tinker. There is only so much you can do the insides of a gun to gain an advantage. Note that the BIG ones which make Limited/Standard and Open different are external mods, not internal ones. It is also cheap. Trigger jobs, sights, and guide rods are all affordable by Joe Everyman. Some of the new "production" race guns are pushing $2000.

Ok .. Off my soap box. It may be that the USPSA aproach is wrong and the IPSC one is right. The reality is that it doesnt matter as long as the shooters are happy with the rules they shoot under. Maybe americans like to tinker more then the international shooters.

PS: hey Dave, you need to come down for some matches. I'm breathlessly waiting to hear your side about recent events.

PSS: Oh Mods, I'm not trying to rekindle the flames, here. I just tried to provide a condensed version of the many 10 page threads arguments (though I do have a bias) in the hope of heading off another monster thread.

Edited October 31, 2005 by Vlad

[Chuck Anderson]

Don't think that you need to do those mods to be competetive. Sure everyone likes to have the 2 pound trigger Glock/XD, but it really isn't needed. I ran all year in preparation for the World Shoot with my IPSC legal production gun. A 7 pound triggered Glock 17. The only things I did were add sights and of course Tru-Grip. Grand total modifications cost me $75.00.

[tintin]

How much those rules were violated at the world shoot is a whole nother discussion.

Some members of the Philippine Team heard you making so many complaints. What rules were violated, and what did you do about them?

Edited November 1, 2005 by tintin

[shred]

Mod note: Let's not get into that here, please. The WS is over and already much-discussed.

[Matthew_Mink]

According to the IPSC rulebook, you can have a trigger job, but you just have to use stock parts, and do minor detailing to them. No cutting or the like, but only minor detailing, which to me is polishing.

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment,

or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun

list are permitted, subject to the following:

19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited.

19.2 Base plates and/or any other devices which provide additional

ammunition capacity (e.g. “+2” magazine extensions), are prohibited.

19.3 Front sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have sight black

applied.

But you are interested in USPSA Production, which has no restrictions on full blown trigger jobs, just as long as there is no external modifications.

Edited November 1, 2005 by Matthew Mink

[Loves2Shoot]

Don't think that you need to do those mods to be competetive. Sure everyone likes to have the 2 pound trigger Glock/XD, but it really isn't needed. I ran all year in preparation for the World Shoot with my IPSC legal production gun. A 7 pound triggered Glock 17. The only things I did were add sights and of course Tru-Grip. Grand total modifications cost me $75.00.

Very true, but if you want a 2+ Xd trigger let me know

The more I shoot the less these thing matter to me. I like short trigger strokes, but a few hundred rounds is about what it takes to adapt to a new trigger setup.

[PHolsted]

US APPENDIX D9

US Production Division

Special conditions:

17. Only handguns approved and listed on the USPSA website may be used in

Production Division.

18. Single-action-only handguns are prohibited.

19. Handgun may not be in single action mode at start signal.

So if rule 18 states that Single-action only handguns are prohibited then why is the XD allowed in this division at all? Is it not a single action handgun?

[shred]

US APPENDIX D9

US Production Division

Special conditions:

17. Only handguns approved and listed on the USPSA website may be used in

Production Division.

18. Single-action-only handguns are prohibited.

19. Handgun may not be in single action mode at start signal.

So if rule 18 states that Single-action only handguns are prohibited then why is the XD allowed in this division at all? Is it not a single action handgun?

Not again... Officially it's 'Ultra-Safe-Action', though the BATFE paperwork only has slots for DA and SA. But, after much wailing and gnashing of teeth, the powers that be decided PD was the best place for it. There's tons more background that a search will turn up.

[R/T Performance]

XD Good choice I have three enjoy

[Kevin Kline]

Wow, Chuck, you shot that 7lb triggered gun at Fl Open and Nationals? That was pretty fast and good shooting. Did you keep it that way to get ready for WS?

[bberkley]

Don't think that you need to do those mods to be competetive. Sure everyone likes to have the 2 pound trigger Glock/XD, but it really isn't needed. I ran all year in preparation for the World Shoot with my IPSC legal production gun. A 7 pound triggered Glock 17. The only things I did were add sights and of course Tru-Grip. Grand total modifications cost me $75.00.

And he really can shoot that Glock 17. Really well. Did I mention how good he is with that 17?

[sturmruger]

I spent around $325 having my XD tuned up. THe gunsmithing coupled with a bunch more practice it has really helped out my shooting. I went from a D to almost B in one summer. I am hoping to be all the way to A by this time next year. I am sick of people complaining about equipment races there will always be an equipment race as long as there is any type of competitive shooting.

[oddjob]

I spent about the $270 to make my XD9 Tactical feel right for me. I'm just having problems with a proper load. I worked with a cowboy shooter who was telling me how they game it in their sport. IDPA shooters as well. Sturmruger is correct about gaming in any of the shooting sports. Anyway, welcome to an addicting run n' gun n' fun sport. You WILL have fun.

[eerw]

same here..

I have a couple of CZ SP01 and it cost me less than $200 each to clean up the trigger and sights..still less $$$ than a NIB Sig 226 SST.

what cool about production is how cheap everything is as compared to playing in open and limited..

[Loves2Shoot]

I spent about the $270 to make my XD9 Tactical feel right for me. I'm just having problems with a proper load. I worked with a cowboy shooter who was telling me how they game it in their sport. IDPA shooters as well. Sturmruger is correct about gaming in any of the shooting sports. Anyway, welcome to an addicting run n' gun n' fun sport. You WILL have fun.

...snd no amount of gaming won't beat a great shooter with a bone stock gun, there are many levels of delusion

[oddjob]

absolutely correct!!! I just need as much help as possible!!

[j2fast]

absolutely correct!!! I just need as much help as possible!!

+1

I didn't have to do anything to my XD to have fun but a figured a trigger job would be nice. Of course then my tendency to over do took over and I ended up sending a more money than I planned to Rich at Canyon Creek. Then it magically came back refinished, with Bo-mars, and the trigger job....

[Carlos]

EERW wrote: " have a couple of CZ SP01 and it cost me less than $200 each to clean up the trigger and sights..still less $$$ than a NIB Sig 226 SST."

Agree. My 2002 model CZ 85 Combat cost just $422 brand new and with a $7 wolf hammer spring, the trigger is great! (granted, after re-working it myself - but still less than a Glock34 +Vanek). I later spent $50 for the competition sights (though plenty of folks pay a lot more than that for Night sights). Even the new SP-01 is going for under $500 and I understand that Impact Guns have them in stock as does Angus at www.ghostholster.com

Cheap is good & its supposed to be a feature of Production division.

[Chuck Anderson]

"Wow, Chuck, you shot that 7lb triggered gun at Fl Open and Nationals? That was pretty fast and good shooting. Did you keep it that way to get ready for WS?"

Yes and yes. I was planning to send them to Vanek after I got back from Ecuador but I haven't got around to it yet. I'm shooting the same at Area 2 next week.