Belt Clarifications for new shooter

[mkmckinley]

Hi folks, setting up my belt for CO and need help clarifying a couple things in the rule book.

 

1. Looking at the hip bone diagram on page 117 app E3: Does the entire pistol/mag need to lay behind an imaginary infinite line defined by the hip bone/iliac crest, or just where it attaches to the belt? In other words can the optic lay past that line if the hanger is behind it?

 

2. Is mag/holster cant allowed in CO and Prod?

 

3. I added Springer +5  base plates to my mags for CO. They’re under 140mm. Can I use these mags in Prod (with 10rounds loaded) assuming the pistol+mag fits in the box?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Mark

[broadside72]

1.  Yes, all parts of the mag/firearm must be behind the line regardless of where mounted. 
2. Cant all you want, just see #1 and the holster keeps muzzle within 3ft at the ground (5.2.7.3)
3. Fits in the box then use them as aftermarket basepads are ok (D4 21.7). Just make sure you watch your round counts in each. 

[jwhittin]

For #1, see the notes on the right and left side of the diagram you reference. 

[MemphisMechanic]

@broadside72 Optic CAN be forward of the line. That was expressly spelled out by DNROI. Holster body and actual gun must be behind your hip bone. (In other words, you don’t have to move the holster location if you switch from Production to CO.)

 

Cant maga however you like. Many of us do so in production.

 

I’d recommend removing your +5s simply  because the gun needs to fit in the box with your mag inserted to be 100% legal. If a new shooter showed up with them I wouldn’t turn them away however, just be religious about loading to 10.

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[broadside72]

[mention=70415]broadside72[/mention] Optic CAN be forward of the line. That was expressly spelled out by DNROI. Holster body and actual gun must be behind your hip bone. (In other words, you don’t have to move the holster location if you switch from Production to CO.)
 
Cant maga however you like. Many of us do so in production.
 
I’d recommend removing your +5s simply  because the gun needs to fit in the box with your mag inserted to be 100% legal. If a new shooter showed up with them I wouldn’t turn them away however, just be religious about loading to 10.
 

He was asking about production so I didn't bother with an optic, but yes you are correct.

And the +5 bases are legal if they fit in the box. But since most local matches don't check the box he could get away with it if they are slightly long. For me, the biggest issue is keeping track of round counts when using partially filled mags between stages

[ChuckS]

19 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@broadside72 Optic CAN be forward of the line. That was expressly spelled out by DNROI. Holster body and actual gun must be behind your hip bone. (In other words, you don’t have to move the holster location if you switch from Production to CO.)

It is specified in Appendix D7

[IVC]

The only thing I would add is do NOT load 11 rounds in your first magazine, just get used to having a separate magazine from which you load the initial round. Everything on the belt should be exactly 10 rounds. 

 

There are unloaded starts that can result in the bump to Open if you start the COF with the 11 rounds... 

[MemphisMechanic]

@IVC that one gets new guys every time. My 11-rd mag lives in a pocket, not a mag carrier. Even if you mess up and bring it to the line, when there’s no load at “make ready” you won’t end up using it.

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[PatJones]

[mention=70964]IVC[/mention] that one gets new guys every time. My 11-rd mag lives in a pocket, not a mag carrier. Even if you mess up and bring it to the line, when there’s no load at “make ready” you won’t end up using it.
 

Appendix D4 reads "Maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal."

I don't see 5.2.4.1 as a clear exception to this requirement, and I would not risk my match on it.

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592

[mkmckinley]

Thank you all for the guidance, this helps a lot

 

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, broadside72 said:

For me, the biggest issue is keeping track of round counts when using partially filled mags between stages

 

 

Which has nothing to do with how many fit in the magazine if your mags hold more than 10 rounds.

 

Personally I reload all magazines all the way up and set up my barney mag right after I finish a stage.  Never leave that for later, based on hard earned experience.

[SGT_Schultz]

56 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Appendix D4 reads "Maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal."

I don't see 5.2.4.1 as a clear exception to this requirement, and I would not risk my match on it.

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
 

 

It can be argued either way.  Since the magazine is not in play.......

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, mkmckinley said:

Hi folks, setting up my belt for CO and need help clarifying a couple things in the rule book.

 

1. Looking at the hip bone diagram on page 117 app E3: Does the entire pistol/mag need to lay behind an imaginary infinite line defined by the hip bone/iliac crest, or just where it attaches to the belt? In other words can the optic lay past that line if the hanger is behind it?

 

2. Is mag/holster cant allowed in CO and Prod?

 

3. I added Springer +5  base plates to my mags for CO. They’re under 140mm. Can I use these mags in Prod (with 10rounds loaded) assuming the pistol+mag fits in the box?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Mark

Gotta read 5.2 and comply with the applicable portions, then go to the appendices.

[broadside72]

 
Which has nothing to do with how many fit in the magazine if your mags hold more than 10 rounds.
 
Personally I reload all magazines all the way up and set up my barney mag right after I finish a stage.  Never leave that for later, based on hard earned experience.

What I was implying was reloading a partially filled standard capacity mag after a stage in a capacity restricted division. It's easy to put that 11th or 12th round in if you don't completely empty the mag instead of just topping off

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, broadside72 said:

5 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 
Which has nothing to do with how many fit in the magazine if your mags hold more than 10 rounds.
 
Personally I reload all magazines all the way up and set up my barney mag right after I finish a stage.  Never leave that for later, based on hard earned experience.

What I was implying was reloading a partially filled standard capacity mag after a stage in a capacity restricted division. It's easy to put that 11th or 12th round in if you don't completely empty the mag instead of just topping off

Luckily the latest generation of CZ P-07/P-09/P-10 magazines (the ones with the orange follower) are so well made that the cartridge witness holes line up perfectly with the primer of the deepest cartridge all the way down to the bottom.  No need for me to empty and count.  Just look.

 

 

[broadside72]

Luckily the latest generation of CZ P-07/P-09/P-10 magazines (the ones with the orange follower) are so well made that the cartridge witness holes line up perfectly with the primer of the deepest cartridge all the way down to the bottom.  No need for me to empty and count.  Just look.
 
 

We aren't all so lucky.. lol

[terrydoc]

Stuck with 10 round Sig mags here in Australia so easy for me in all our divisions, 10 in the mag and use a barney on the loaded stages. 

[JayWord]

I always empty my production mags and reload them. That's why the MTM 100 round boxes are great.I never put 11 rounds in a production/limited 10 mag. I have a barney mag that does not drop free, older Glock 17 mag that is only used for that purpose. It lives in my rear pocket.

I have seen too many shooters go to Open division due to mistakes in loading/reloading mags. As a previous poster stated, unloaded starts get a fair number of shooters. Habits die hard during matches and many shooters have a system they follow every time. If that system is you load your 11 rounds from your back pocket, if you get rushed or distracted you revert to habit.

 

I grew up as a 1911 SS shooter. I always had to barney up with my 8 round mags, it is just easier for me to do that in every division I shoot, even PCC.

 

Jay