The State Of 3 Gunning

[cking]

Some outlaw matches are scary. I visited small free match and lack of rules, and people playing with there guns with mags behind the line sent me home without ever getting involved.

So I don't shoot with those guys, oh well. I like the belt and suspenders approach that uspsa has for safety.

As far as the match rules, scoring, gun class's. Each area/club will have there own makeup. What makes their shooters happy. Who are we to tell them they are wrong.

As long as the post the rules, apply them fairly that's great with me. I like the variety. I get bored with ipsc pistol matches.

Yes it is a game and I know that but I believe it has a lot of practical applications. For me it helped the night I had to go under a guys house to shoot a large wounded pit bull. It help the night I took a shotgun out to help my rotty and had a three dogs turn on me. It help the night I got held up at gas station.

So lots of people lots of different reasons.

My biggest complaint is that scoring systems all leave a lot to be desired. I can't say I have a solution, but if it works for your club great.

I really don't think the 3 gunners are that much interested in having 3 gun classifiers? Am I wrong?

Then I don't see the value in the $40 a year, $3-$1.50 per shooter fees either. But as gun club owner I see that the national standing does bring people to the match. So I go with the Flow.

Maybe 3gun will get that way but for right now lets leave pretty much alone except for safety rules. Lets not have many different kinds of safety rules.

I don't like IDPA because of all silly equipment holster rules.

[MKuhn]

How do figure that the dreaded outlaw matches are unsafe?

After shooting in over 20 three-gun matches under both USPSA / IMG I know that the safety rules are virtually the same from match to match and some green bean will error in every match, I will wager that when you were a FNG the same applyed.

As for as hot re holstering, you start every USPSA pistol stage by hot holstering, I feel confident that I will not blow off my leg, and like wise the people I shoot with. The newbies, we OR extra close on the stage and keep an eye on them the rest of the time, as a we should. Stress reloading can be controlled by the RO, if sees the shooter struggling slow him down.

Love

Mell Kuhn

[latewatch]

Wow, what a thread!! I've been off the forum a few days and it took awhile to read this one. Here's my two cents.

I've shot many different types of 3 Gun Matchs from USPSA to DPMS, SMM, the old SOF, and various types of Military and Police Matches. I liked them all. I think the different flavors of the matches are an asset not a detriment. There should be no effort to consolidate all the rules unless someone comes up with the "perfect" system (no such thing). I don't see an issue with equipment either. Shoot what you have or buy new stuff if that's what you want to do.

As far as the hot reholstering and the "tactical applications" go, if your interested in those things, train on your own time. As soon as the word competition comes into the mix, tactics go out the window. The real gold mine in this sport for tactical applications is mastering the gunhandling skills that this sport requires. Then go back and train your tactics with these refined skills. Having taught tactics and weapons skills to Military Spec Ops and Police and participated in training over the last 25 years, I can say that there is nothing that I would feel unsafe doing on the range with the right personnel but, those personnel have been trained and have been working together and trust each other. At your typical 3 Gun Match you will have all levels of shooters and some things are simply beyond them.

[MikeFoley]

Could it be that USPSA has such a large turnout because they have such a large field of membership? The "outlaw" matches have no such organization to draw from or market to. Just a thought.

[SinistralRifleman]

Having run two matches now that had hot re-holstering...I don't see it as a safety issue.

Every person I RO'ed that reholstered a hot handgun, I could see them slow down and deliberately holster it. Afew of these people were very glad they had their handguns later in the stage when their rifles stopped working and I gave them the OK to transition. If someone didn't want to reholster hot....they were welcome to clear it. I'd never require someone to do something they feel uncomfortable doing.

Regardless of the action someone is performing, problems arise when they compromise safety for speed. If someone is trying to go to fast, they're going to screw up.

The motivation to not shoot yourself, should be enough in and of itself for people to exercise safe gun handling. If we are saying every other action on the range is incapable of causing injury or death due to gross negligence on the part of the shooter, we are kidding ourselves. To shoot yourself or someone else you've had to violate at least one critical safety rule, usually multiple safety rules...if you can't follow those rules you shouldn't be shooting at all.

1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.

2. Never allow the muzzle to point at anything you are not willing to see destroyed.

3. Be sure of your target and know what lies behind it.

4. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned on target.

To shoot yourself reholstering hot you've had to violate rules 1,2, and 4...someone breaking those rules is just as likely to shoot themselves performing any other action in a practical shooting match, or simply plinking on the range on a sunday afternoon.

[Zak Smith]

To back up Russell, the only instance of a gunshot wound at a match I know of was a dude walking/running during a stage with a loaded AR15 who shot himself in the foot. This was not a USPSA nor a 3Gun match.

[George]

My .0195 on hot re-holstering:

No matter how much experience one has with seeing this done safely, the real fact of the matter is that hot re-holstering has a serious problem that glossing over will not take away. You are sweeping yourself each and every time you holster a hot gun PERIOD Nothing can change or ameliorate that basic fact.

The law of averages says two things here. 1. It is possible that an injurious AD may not happen right away. 2. It is a certainty that an AD will happen sooner or later and it's also a certaintly that there is going to be more than one AD in the long run. The only real question here is not whether there will be an injurious one, but when will there be an injurious one. I don't like those odds.

Here is another kicker, I have been in this game for almost twenty years and I would trust myself to stick it back in a holster while hot and on the clock. I will also trust Zak and Russ and Benny Hill and Kelly Neal and Mike Voigt and Kurt Miller etc, etc.... Do I trust the newbie that I just showed the ropes to last weekend and who has just showed up to shoot our local 3 gun match. Heck NO!! You say proper RO caution can ameliorate this, I say that is a thin safety catch at best and it's just a matter of time before it wears too thin!

The point here is we are pretty much all safe shooters, except for when we make a mistake. The reason for not allowing the muzzle of a loaded weapon to pass across any part of ourselves, or others at any time during a course of fire is because mistakes can and DO happen. They just don't happen very often, but when they do, there is nothing you can do to take the problem back! The only fix for the inevitable end result of that accident is to not allow it to happen in the first place. RO's are not the way to do that by their lonesome. You have to prohibit higher risk practices too when the public is participating.

I think hot re-holstering is OK if you can certify your crowd. Match open to the public, I say no way!

The real world says that if you do something for long enough and do it often enough, the bad possibility is gonna happen and that's a fact. It is a tiny bit naive to assume anything else for something at this level of serious.

In my business we temporarily rig heavy objects from improvised points over large crowds of people. We have stringent rules that are NEVER shorted on, EVER. We take precaution to a point an order of magnitude over what you might think is safe on your own as a layman (we really do add a zero here). There is just no substitute for overkill x10 on any safety related issue.

--

Regards,

Edited October 22, 2005 by George

[Zak Smith]

the real fact of the matter is that hot re-holstering has a serious problem that glossing over will not take away. You are sweeping yourself each and every time you holster a hot gun PERIOD Nothing can change or ameliorate that basic fact.

I just checked my 3 OWB and 3 IWB Milt holsters, Kydex for my 1911 (ComTac) and SV (BladeTech), and Safariland for the Glock. None of them cause the muzzle to "cover" any part of my body while static, drawing, reholstering, or "most" body positions. (Though I point out it's also possible to cover one's self while opening a door with one hand and holding the weapon in the other.)

The reason for not allowing the muzzle of a loaded weapon to pass across any part of ourselves, or others at any time during a course of fire is because mistakes can and DO happen.

IF we accept your premises (though refuted above) and follow your logic, then virtually EVERY USPSA/IPSC match has got to drive you NUTS, because they start off with loaded pistols in holsters and sometimes even MOVE before drawing.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Zak Smith

[George]

The act of taking the gun out of the holster is the riskiest part of what we do as it is pointing at our lower extremities at that point and not downrange. It is an accepted risk (accepted, but inevitable because it is certain that sooner or later there will be an accident).

Putting it back in at high speed is more than doubling that risk. While it is in the holster it has the trigger guard covered and unless it malfunctions, it has a very low statistical probably of an AD.

We always do LAMR slowly and carefully and that reduces chance accidents but nothing removes the possibility of an accident totally here and this is with it being done carefully.

All holsters (irregardless of make and model) that point the gun straight down and attach to our belts or thighs or waists point the gun in the general direction of our lower leg and foot on the side of the body the holster is on. This isn't a point of it's 2 degrees offline from the muzzle so it's not pointing at my leg and foot. It IS pointing at my leg and foot if the muzzle is anywhere near in line with my leg in a vertical manner.

I used to run an Ernie Hill FastTrak with the cant set to point the gun muzzle more forward than down, but If I was squatting, it pointed right at my strong foot and thats what gets swept as you draw and reholster when in that position. There is no such thing as a holster that doesn't put the muzzle in line and within a couple inches of some part of the lower body. In line and within a couple inches of a leg/foot IS pointing at something as far as our 180 rule goes.

--

Regards,

Edited October 21, 2005 by George

[MikeFoley]

I agree with George. USPSA matches don't bother me because it they never have someone hot reholster a gun they just got through shooting on the clock. They are loaded, put on safe, and holstered under the control of a range officer without any pressure on the shooter. Reholster is done after clearing the gun.

I trust myself and my Bladetech I use for 3Gun, and I trust most of the shooters I shoot with. I do not trust people I do not know, nor do I trust the newbie. One of the rules of gun safety I grew up with was "do not rely on a mechanical safety". Many shooters don't even have a working grip safety.

I simply don't want anyone to ND anywhere near themselves, and the probability of it is higher when reholstering on the clock. No one says it cannot be done safely guys, it can and will be done safely many times. If one person gets shot, practical shooting can be seriously jeopardized. I can't see how that doesn't come into play when this issue is considered.

BTW, I see USPSA holsters all the time that point the muzzle at the right foot of the shooter. Some open shooters point the muzzle at their crotch(why I have no idea). You guys have seen this haven't you? Kydex scabbards are surely the safest holsters around, but if a shirt tail gets lodged in there, this too could turn ugly.

It just isn't worth it, there is no net gain by doing this.

BTW, I think slinging a hot rifle to transition to a pistol is much safer than the reverse.

Edited October 21, 2005 by fomeister

[Flexmoney]

I don't think all the rules need to be the same (seems like hot holstering might be one difference). Every match should have it's own flavor.

It seems like it would be nice to have similar equipment, if possible. And, rules that are "close enough" that nobody gets bent over when they switch from shooting one type of match to another.

[GeneralChang]

Incosistent rules, shooting conditions, or interpretations should not have any place in any match, be it USPSA or Outlaw 3 gun. I experienced this first hand at an outlaw match, and it was frustrating.

Edited October 21, 2005 by GeneralChang

[Zak Smith]

We could make it 100% safer by ditching holsters entirely. Shooters will bring their guns to the line bagged and unloaded, will LAMR and then place it horizontally in a small pistol-shaped box on a table, from which they will draw one-handed (so as to not sweep their weak hand, of course).

[Chuck Anderson]

"As for as hot re holstering, you start every USPSA pistol stage by hot holstering, "

Please tell me that you can see a difference between holstering off the clock after a LAMR command and running from one position to another to grab a different gun while trying to stuff you pistol back into a tiny piece of kydex, leather, metal or whatever. And yes I did a fair amount of goofy s**t when I first started shooting IPSC. My first match I showed up with my gun in the holster with the slide locked back. And this was after shooting outlaw matches for 3 years. That's kind of my point. In LE we have to train to the lowest common denominator. I would love to be able to teach my guys some of the high speed low drag stuff that I've picked up. But it would be over the heads of half of them. Same reason I won't reholster a hot gun on the clock.

[SinistralRifleman]

Well gentlemen, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this...if we ever perceive hot re-holstering to be any more of a liability than it is running a match in and of itself, we will discontinue allowing it at our match.

This is something the people running a match need to assess for themselves and see if it fits well with the type of shooters they are attracting.

One reason we wanted to do our own match, was so we could shoot machine guns, do trooper class, and hot transitions....things we typically do not get to do anywhere else. We are also trying to attract people outside the typical competition shooting circles, for whom having the option of doing these things might make the match more interesting for them to attend.

[TMC]

We could make it 100% safer by ditching holsters entirely. Shooters will bring their guns to the line bagged and unloaded, will LAMR and then place it horizontally in a small pistol-shaped box on a table, from which they will draw one-handed (so as to not sweep their weak hand, of course).

If you've ever RO's new shooters you've seen things that scare you, having them reholster a hot gun on the clock is nuts! Because they have to think more about it more because they may shoot themselves doesn't make it any better.

Zak, you want to put on a match for you and your friends that you feel are safe at hot reholstering have at it, but that's not the way to grow the sport. You stand behind and to the right of the new guy who almost dropped his pistol on the draw while he reholsters it hot on the clock after he forgot to put the saftey on, not me.

Edited October 22, 2005 by George

[Zak Smith]

On a serious note, I was just thinking about this-

USPSA rules and procedures, including what kind of stages, targets, etc, are allowed are VERY specific. This can be good from a "fairness" point of view, but it also narrows the scope of what the shooters gets to experience.

When I compare USPSA pistol to 3Gun, just in general, I see USPSA pistol as very specialized, very focused, the shooter knows almost exactly what to expect. On the other hand, I see 3Gun as testing a much more broad set of skills. If you add in the "Outlaw" 3Gun and tac-rifle matches, you have to think more because you will have to process more different types of situations, targets, movement, planning, etc.

In summary, they throw stuff at you you don't expect, and you have to deal with it. It tests me more broadly and keeps me on my toes (mindset). USPSA doesn't do that.

Edited October 21, 2005 by George

[George]

This is something the people running a match need to assess for themselves and see if it fits well with the type of shooters they are attracting.

S'Truth

I feel that requiring a level of demonstrated competence on the part of the competitor is not a bad idea when doing things a little bit riskier.

It's a given that we accept a certain amount of risk. Splatter, ricochet, dropped gun, etc... These things all happen and we accept them. No one has died yet, I don't even think anyone has lost an eye yet ;-) We keep doing the low yield risky practices because they are low yield as far as dire consequences go. Any time we up the ante in any manner whatsoever, we just need to be aware of it and make an informed decision on it as Russ states above.

I guess the next good thing we need to get sorted out here is a solid as a rock disclaimer/waiver the competitors have to sign before shooting. A good one of these is always a good idea for the match management and sponsors, especially if they run businesses with significant real assets. I am not really making any joke here. If an injury ever happens under specific circumstances, it could be a real PITA to be involved with that match in any supportive manner if great white level lawers start schooling around it.

I hope everyone understands that my level of caution is based on my safety philosophy that says: it is better to hugely err on the side of safety, than to even peek at the side of tragedy.

BTW, Zak, good points, I was typing and just now read them.

I think we all agree that it's safe enough to do riskier things if you are extra careful with it, as in controlling the skill level, or some other risk reduction scheme to eliminate the wider vagaries present along with all risky behaviour. We all know that calculated risks are really not risks per se' just acts of faith in ourselves no different than the 100 to 1000 a day that comprise our lives ;-)

--

Regards,

Edited October 21, 2005 by George

[Garryowen]

We could make it 100% safer by ditching holsters entirely. Shooters will bring their guns to the line bagged and unloaded, will LAMR and then place it horizontally in a small pistol-shaped box on a table, from which they will draw one-handed (so as to not sweep their weak hand, of course).

Very true, any of us that have shot a Glock Match know, you do not start from a holster, but from a low-ready.

I am ok with different matches haveing different formats and slightly different rules. Almost every match I have ever been to follows the same set of core saftey rules (finger off trigger, 180, cold range, etc.). The fact I can go to different matches and do different things is what keep me in the sport.

The fact we are "playing" with implements of death and destruction is what brings 99% of us to the table, other wise we would just play bad-mitten or go bowling (and save ourselves alot of time and money). I am ok wil hot -re-holstering, because at every match I have ever shot (USPSA) I start with a hot re-holster (think about it) and anyone who is so worried about being fast and/or winning that they cannot slow down that fraction of a second to put their loaded gun back in the holster they pulled the same loaded gun out of... well they are incompotent and should find a new hobby.

Just my $0.02, YMMV

[latewatch]

I am ok wil hot -re-holstering, because at every match I have ever shot (USPSA) I start with a hot re-holster (think about it) and anyone who is so worried about being fast and/or winning that they cannot slow down that fraction of a second to put their loaded gun back in the holster they pulled the same loaded gun out of... well they are incompotent and should find a new hobby.

Just my $0.02, YMMV

In LAMR there is no time factor or pressure. And let's not forget Open Class type holsters!!!! I have no problem with hot-reholstering myself or other trained shooters but, I will not put myself in the position of running a match or stage where I have to RO shooters I don't know their skill level and do the same thing. To me, that is putting yourself and the match at a very high liability level. Much higher, IMO, then running around and shooting with loaded "Implements of Death and Destruction".

[chp5]

In LAMR there is no time factor or pressure. And let's not forget Open Class type holsters!!!!

+1!

Hot re-holstering of Open guns

I'm not RO'ing!

[MKuhn]

How come you and I are ok to hot reholster it’s the other guy.

Every outlaw 3 gunner that “I” know is a USPSA member (even most newbes) and every outlaw match “I’ve” been has been MD’ed by, and the future ones most likely will be MD’ed by a USPSA member.

The iron clad wavers are only worth paper, having an auto accident on there private property is grounds for suit.

Not being sanctioned certainly has not adversely impacted the turn out.

Love

Mell

Edited October 21, 2005 by MKuhn

[PacMan]

Most interesting thread so far ...However, Kellyn posed the questions and it seemed to me that a large majority wanted to assimilate us "out laws" instead of offering suggestions as how we can move this discipline to the next level.

There was a suggestion worth considering - Eliminate the D zone hits in time plus scoring.

Mel, you're just full of love

Hung

Edited October 21, 2005 by PacMan

[Bronco]

We have a local match that is a team of two, both carry a loaded pistol and a long arm. They encounter pistol, rifle and shotgun targets and have to hot reholster and sling their long arm many times, at least 10 times during the cof, this is done over rough terrain on the clock and by some of the greenest beans you have ever shot with. This is/was the first match for many of them. In four years we have had no AD'S and no DQ'S. They are given a satety lecture and two RO'S are with them through the entire course.

I am not advocating this for every match as there are other issues with hot holstering pistols such as going prone to shoot rifle, but it can be done safely by new shooters if they are given some training before hand and they know what is expected of them. It really boils down to if the MD is comfortable with it or not and how important it is to the match. We couldn't have run our match with out it in a fair and equitable manner so were compelled to try it. Many an hour was devoted to making it as safe as possible and to the training of new competitors. I'd hate to see the envelope never have its boundaries explored. Keith

I wish I could sign all my posts as HUNG.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Bronco

[Brian Payne]

Hot holstering the weapon is not a big deal - until you add the time constraints of a match enviornment. By that I mean to LAMR is not timed, so not that dangerous. The matches requiring you to reholster and then transition to another weapon are no big deal if the course of fire lasts more than a short amount of time. When you have a course of fire that has a total competitive time of 30 seconds or less (just random time made up by me), you are asking for problems if there is the holstering of a hot weapon within that time constraint. Everyone will be doing anything to get that extra .10 of a second advantage. The time taken to throttle back to holster safely may not be taken. You would soon be seeing shooters trying to holster as quickly as they are drawing.

I have been an LEO and Police Firearms Instructor for 26 yrs. I have never had a training accident on the range and we do hot holstering and weapon transitions all the time but the time constraints are not near that of what you experiance at a match. But on the same token we have a large department not far from me that has had 13 AD's since 1990, and those have taken place when the Officers were in the process of holstering their Glock. Nothing wrong with the weapon, or the holster, or the training the officers received. More a problem of mental concentration of the Officer based on the situation they were in.

The best example I can make is seeing the number of traffic accidents caused by people driving and talking on Cell phones. Diverted concentration affects all humans. I just don't think people should drive AND talk on the cell phone. Nor should they be holstering hot weapons under time constraints IF AT ALL POSSIBLE!

It can be done by all level of shooters. The chances of an AD just go up to a certain extent. I would not be willing to put our competition shooting safety record in possible jeapordy just for a little extra leeway in course of fire options. Would it make some courses of fire more enjoyable and tactically correct? You bet. Would it be worth the risk? My opinion it would not. YMMV

Edited October 21, 2005 by Sgt