Best Powder for 9mm NATO/+P

[Wolerine19D]

Hey guys, after lots of Google searches it appears you guys give the best tech info of any forum and thought this would be the best place to come for help. I have a good bit of 124 and 147gr HST pulls I plan to load up to stash away and will also be loading up some FMJs of the same weight for practice.  I am wanting to load somewhere around 9mm NATO / +P , and while there are tons of threads on 9mm Major/Minor there isn't as much on standard loads. 

 

My goal for the 124gr bullets is somewhere around 1175-1225fps, and for the 147's somewhere around 1000-1050ish or perhaps a little more if the powder can do it safely.   I may also eventually load up some 115gr Gold Dots/RMR HP to around 1225-1275ish.  

 

What I am wanting out of a powder is -

Something that will give the least recoil for faster follow up shots

Something with a lower muzzle flash (no Power Pistol) but doesn't have to be the best at this

Something fairly clean , but doesn't have to be the cleanest.  I just don't want a really dirty powder

 

Accuracy doesn't matter much as long as it's reasonable.  How well it meters/throws doesn't matter to me because I will be throwing under and trickling each charge.  I already have a good bit of CCI and Federal small pistol magnum primers so plan to use those.  These rounds will be shot out of numerous handguns with stock barrels and will be loaded to be as reliable as possible meaning they will all be loaded just short enough to fit in the Gen 5 Glocks and CZ barrels. 

 

After doing lots of research online I know there are a lot of good powders out there for NATO/+P loads including BE-86, Silhouette, True Blue, CFE Pistol, WAC, W-572, N350, AA5, SW Major Pistol, SW Ultimate Pistol, etc. 

 

I already have a couple pounds of BE-86 and CFE Pistol from my initial research saying they were some of the best for +P loads.  But since I am wanting to load up some rounds for the least recoil possible while achieving my goals above I am thinking there are better options then the BE-86 I have?  Some powders that come to mind are N330, N340, Sport Pistol, SW Ultimate Pistol, SW Clean Shot.  I am really leaning towards N330 but am not sure if there is something better for my purpose or not? 

 

I don't have any local powder suppliers so I have to place an order for my powder/primers which means it's only worth it to order a lot at one time and I don't want to order multiple 1 pound jugs to see what works best when I have years of experience from you guys and can just order the right powder from the start.  Thanks for any help, it's greatly appreciated!

[Sarge]

19D? Scout?

[s2000red]

This might help.  http://www.natoreloading.com/9mm/

 

[HesedTech]

23 minutes ago, Wolerine19D said:

But since I am wanting to load up some rounds for the least recoil possible while achieving my goals above I am thinking there are better options then the BE-86 I have? 

 

Least recoil is mostly a function of bullet weight and velocity. There are good studies where recoil was physically measured and found the most dense powders (fast burning) gave the least recoil at a given bullet weight and velocity. 

 

Here's a good article explaining measured recoil and powder choice.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/6/19/gunpowder-selection-for-controlling-recoil/

 

In the end powder choice and "feel" is probably more important to each shooter.

 

 

[Wolerine19D]

Hey Sarge, at one point I was but just in the state guard here in WV.  I've been out a few years now.

 

s2000, I've already went over that website dozens of times and find it really helpful but it doesn't talk much about recoil.  That site is probably what made me pick N330 as being one of the best choices for my purpose.  I made a chart with all of his powders that made velocity from 1125-1250fps in 124gr and 950-1100fps in 147gr in 25fps increments so I could compare the charge weights of each. 

 

Hesed, Thanks for the link I read the page and it lined up with a lot of stuff I've been reading.  Pretty much from what I've read it seems like whatever powder uses the least amount of powder per weight produces the least amount of felt recoil.  And it seems like N330 is about the fastest powder I can go with that will still get me up to the velocities I am looking for.  There are some others close to it but I'm not sure how they compare.  From the little I've read N330 seems to be fairly flash suppressant, and fairly clean.  Anymore input on this would be great, as well as other powder recommendations. 

 

I also find many people talking about how they like the recoil impulse of a certain powder better.  It seems like a lot of people really like Winchester powders for recoil unless it was just an odd coincidence that many people reported them as softer shooting.   The BE-86 seems to be reported as being a little bit snappy compared to others even though it's charge weight is less then most of the +P powders.  On paper BE-86 is probably one of the best from what I've read in the +P territory but since I am going to put all the time/money/effort into loading up the best rounds I can I would like to take advantage of the best materials possible for these loads.  And lighter recoil and faster followup shots would be nice to have for this ammo. 

[zzt]

Take a look at the VV loading manual.  For example, a 147 JHP with 6.3gr 3N38 makes 1171 fps out of a 4" barrel with a 1.142" OAL, and that is the STARTING load.  That's major at 172 PF.

[Wolerine19D]

I think the 3N38 is really too slow for my purposes.  I'm sure it will do the velocity easy but so will the BE-86 I already have and a dozen others.  I am not going for max velocity and 1175-1200fps from a 147gr is more then I need. 

 

Not to say I won't load some of those up eventually but I am wanting to make these rounds have as light of recoil as possible and around 1000-1100fps for the 147s I'm pretty sure the faster powders would have less recoil then the slower powders like the 3N38? 

 

If I wasn't worried about trying to find the lightest recoil for my velocity requirements then I would probably just use BE-86, CFE Pistol, N350, Silhouette, W572, etc.  Maybe I'm overthinking this and if I was just loading rounds for plinking I wouldn't care.  But I'm wanting to load a few thousand of these to stash away in case of emergency.  And would like to continue to use the same load for practice and finding the best powder choice isn't going to cost me any extra money so I'd like to make the best choice possible. 

[Service Desk]

Power Pistol....they gave it that name for a good reason.... at the 150 to 160 pf levels that you are chasing,  cartridge working pressure will be a bigger concern to you than recoil. WSF could be an alternative worth looking at.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Service Desk

[1911in9mm]

Vhit N330, N340, and WSF would be about ideal for what you’re trying to do.  They check all your wishes for what you’re looking for in a powder.  Accurate at your approximate PF, clean burning, very low muzzle flash, and I highly doubt you could tell a difference in recoil between the 3 of them.  The obvious still applies, Vihtavuori powder is higher cost than WSF.  If you decide to run Vhit, buy ahead of your needs.  It’s imported so availability can be an issue even in the best of times.  

[Wolerine19D]

Thanks for the input.  From what I've read the WSF seems to be very favored but from the little I read wasn't sure how much flash it had and if it could be loaded hot enough for +P loads.  The Nato Reloading website didn't have it listed and all of the other places max it's velocity out a decent bit below my goals but I'm sure that's standard pressure and I doubt it will have any trouble at the velocity numbers I'm expecting.  I also read it could be a little dirty but I imagine that was mostly people running Minor loads.  I don't care anyways as long as it's not too bad. 

 

I haven't read as much about N340 but have thought about it as well.  I was just hoping to get there with N330 if possible and from the numbers I've seen I think it's possible to do so at just barely +P levels.  The price doesn't bother me for the pistol powders when a pound will do 1200-1500 rounds it's a fraction of the total overall cost and would only add $5-10 extra per 1k over other powders.  And only needing a slightly lower charge weight then say my BE-86 I imagine it almost makes up for the price difference.  When I decide what to order I will get at least 2-3 jugs of it to have enough to load up what I have and then some. 

 

If you had to pick just one powder for my needs would it be N330?  Or do you think N340 or WSF has a slight advantage in some way. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Wolerine19D

[AHI]

N330 should do what you are after.   N330 meters better than N340.

WSF is very clean and will probably do what your after also. It may 

just come down to what you can get.

[1911in9mm]

If I had to pick one single powder to reload 9mm with, it would be N330.   To me it has no holes in it’s performance.   It can get sooty at very low charge weights, every powder will do that.  It will do minor to +P very well, accurately, cleanly, and none of the associated flash of Power Pistol.  Simply it will do mild to hot as well as anything I’ve found to charge a 9mm case with.  You wouldn’t make major PF with it, but that’s not a goal.  

 

As stated it’s only drawbacks have been cost and availability.  It used to be a favored powder years ago, and Vhit changed importers to the US and N330 disappeared for several years.  Loaders found other powders to accomplish the same goals.  It never stopped being a great powder, just lost some fans because they couldn’t get it any more.  I’ve used N320, N330, N340, N350, WAC, ASP, HS-6, and WSF.  But I burn more N330 than the others combined.  Opinions vary, but it works very well for me.  

[Wolerine19D]

1911, you've been a big help in helping me decide on the powder choice.  I guess I just needed some others with more experience to confirm what I already guessed was one of the best powders for my goals.  I just like to research stuff as much as possible, especially when I will be loading up a bunch of these to store away. 

 

How did you like WAC and WSF?  I've read the WAC is almost identical to CFE Pistol but without the copper eraser.  I'm not sure how dirty it is or how much flash it has.  And I take it WSF is similar in burn rate to N330-N340ish and probably better for what I'm needing then WAC.  While I don't have any local suppliers there is a small shop about 45 minutes away that has some powder options but most are very overpriced at $30-40 a pound but remember seeing the WSF/WAC for around $25 which isn't half bad.  I plan to order the N330 but having backup options for the future is nice. 

 

Also curious did you ever try out BE-86, or CFE Pistol?  I have more of the BE-86 and love the numbers on the stuff but don't think it offers anything that N330 doesn't already have except for you guys that run Major?  From what I've read it's still fairly flashy even with it's flash suppressant, it's just an improvement over Power Pistol in that regard.  And the recoil is reported as being quite snappy compared to other powders from a few guys that wrote about it.  I'm not sure what they were comparing it with though. 

[1911in9mm]

If I had to pick 1 powder to load 9mm, and N330 was unavailable it’d be WSF.  Power Pistol and 330 are so close it’s not funny, other than muzzle flash.  N340 and WSF mirror each other performance wise.  Reason I’d take WSF is there’s not enough difference to justify the premium price.  Both clean, accurate, low flash.  Different price points. 
 

WAC/CFEP,  6 of one half dozen another.  Your research is accurate.  Dirty on the low end, clean up nicely at mid range plus.  Not obnoxiously flashy on the high end.  I’ve not loaded BE86 but have a friend that does.  He gets some nice loads with it.  Good numbers, accurate, clean mid to high range, nice little muzzle bloom though, not atrocious.  
 

Only powder I’m still trying to locate a few pounds of locally is True Blue.  Word around the campfire is that it’s a true gem in a 9mm.  I’d like to sample it on a small scale before I’d commit enough to order it in bulk.  

[mwx40x40]

On 6/25/2020 at 8:27 PM, Service Desk said:

Power Pistol....they gave it that name for a good reason.... at the 150 to 160 pf levels that you are chasing,  cartridge working pressure will be a bigger concern to you than recoil. WSF could be an alternative worth looking at.

^^^^another vote for Power Pistol. 

[Wolerine19D]

I have also read a lot of praise on True Blue and it seems like a lot of it comes from the same few people on other forums but from what I've read it does seem to be great stuff.  But looking at the charge weights it requires a decent bit more powder to get the same velocity at +P loads.  For Major I imagine it would work quite well but at NATO/+P levels I don't see it having any advantage over the faster N330 type powders that could give me less recoil.

 

And as good of a powder as Power Pistol is, I am not really interested in it due to how much flash it produces and also because I can just use BE-86 which is practically Power Pistol with flash suppressant and just a tiny bit faster meaning less powder required to get the same velocity.  I don't see where Power Pistol has any advantage over BE-86 that I've read. 

 

That is why BE-86 was my first choice starting out from all the praise Power Pistol and then BE-86 had so I added a couple pounds onto an order I was already making.  But now after having a good bit of HST pulls to load up and doing more research I was wondering if there wasn't a better powder choice out there that could produce even less muzzle flash and more importantly less recoil. 

 

It appears N330 is the top contended for my needs at NATO/+P levels unless I hear of others saying otherwise.  If there is a faster powder out there that can produce less recoil then N330 while giving me the velocity I'm looking for then I'd be happy to hear about it assuming it's not too flashy and not too dirty.  But at the moment I am planning on ordering some N330 in the near future while it's still in stock. 

[Wolerine19D]

Something else that's been on my mind, is it the least charge weight has the least recoil, or the densest powder? 

The reason I ask, a powder like True Blue can fit over 11 grains in a 9mm case, while a powder like N330 is 7-8 grains I believe so even though the True Blue takes 1 grain more to achieve the same velocity is it possible it produces the same recoil or even less because it's a much denser ball powder? 

[Hdiamond]

On 6/25/2020 at 8:37 AM, s2000red said:

This might help.  http://www.natoreloading.com/9mm/

 

This sent me down an awesome rabbit hole. Bookmarked - thank you for this!

[drysideshooter]

For several years my most used powder for 9mm and 38SC has been WSF.  For open guns with comps I shot quite a bit of WAC, but still prefer WSF. I've used it for minor steel loads as well as +P higher PF loads.  I just worked up a load for a 9mm PCC and am happy with WSF for that as well.  It's a versatile powder and pretty clean. I've never noticed an abnormal amount of flash. It also meters well. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by drysideshooter

[AHI]

On 6/28/2020 at 9:34 PM, Wolerine19D said:

Something else that's been on my mind, is it the least charge weight has the least recoil, or the densest powder? 

The reason I ask, a powder like True Blue can fit over 11 grains in a 9mm case, while a powder like N330 is 7-8 grains I believe so even though the True Blue takes 1 grain more to achieve the same velocity is it possible it produces the same recoil or even less because it's a much denser ball powder? 

Recoil can be very subjective. As a general rule the powder that uses the lowest charge to produce the same velocity.Will have the lower recoil.This is not 100%.Remember recoil can be very subjective.

[FightFireJay]

Wolverine,

You've told us your goals but I'm curious as to the "Why".  I assume you aren't shooting competition, or we'd be talking PF, it's not hunting, not for Bullseye, etc.  Are you trying to run a finicky subgun?

 

I'm wondering if you're over thinking this.  Whatever your reasoning for NATO spec ammo different powders only give nuanced difference in feel.  Why choose to make higher recoiling practice ammo and then search out a slightly lower recoil powder?  Especially when you already have 2 powders on hand that fit the bill?

[AHI]

Look up the bullets he is using.

[lll Otto lll]

On 6/25/2020 at 7:56 AM, Wolerine19D said:

My goal for the 124gr bullets is somewhere around 1175-1225fps, and for the 147's somewhere around 1000-1050ish or perhaps a little more if the powder can do it safely.   I may also eventually load up some 115gr Gold Dots/RMR HP to around 1225-1275ish. 

You own and use a chrono...right?

[FightFireJay]

1 hour ago, AHI said:

Look up the bullets he is using.

I misread that the HST info was pulled bullets not loaded ammo.  But this is also kind of my point, if the purpose is for self defense then perhaps replicating the approximate factory velocity is a good starting place to ensure proper terminal ballistics.  HSTs are pretty forgiving of short barrels and Lowe velocity but they are typically at the shallow end of penetration.  Going above factory ammo may further decrease penetration by increasing expansion.

 

I'm not saying any of the information given is wrong nor am I disapproving of the OPs intentions, I was just looking for the whole picture.

[AHI]

That(the purpose) would be against forum rules.

I am only guessing at the intended purpose.

Edited June 30, 2020 by AHI