PCC Flag - absence thereof

[Sarge]

14 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

And you have picked me to tell this because?  Well aware the two sports are different, I run matches in both formats.  I was in a discussion responding to others.  Well aware of the original post.  What is or isn’t drug into a conversation you are far from the police of.  If it doesn’t make sense to you, or you can’t keep up, or you went off half-cocked without having actually read the thread does not deem me having to hear your personal problems.  You jumped in, blindly swinging, and now pointing at me that you take issue with others.  Take a hike if you have nothing worthy to submit or decent reason to engage me.  The conversation was actually quite educational to those not understanding the original issue, and furthermore the intricacies in differing sports with different rules they may participate in both of.  That’s how threads work. Maybe next time go outside and yell at some clouds when you get confused.  They will care equally of your attempted imposing of your standards upon others as I do.

Now I know why you disappear for weeks at a time!

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Now I know why you disappear for weeks at a time!

unfortunately correct.

[Sarge]

7 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

unfortunately correct.

Been there myself a few times but brother, you have the gift.

[ima45dv8]

Let's remember we're here to talk about the rules point(s) raised. Not each other.

Thanks...

[Jollymon32]

Gents

Thanks for all the input.  Here’s is what I understand:

1) Flagging a PCC is a requirement in both sports

2) In neither of the sports, the failure to flag is considered a DQ.  You need to address the issue is all.

 

I have also learned a powerful lesson for the “DQ first, ask questions later” crowd and that is to ask them “state the DQ rule that you would apply to the event (hint in USPSA it starts with ‘10.’)”. 

 

Thanks!

[IVC]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:16 AM, bret said:

If it is cased or in a sleeve, no chamber flag is required, above is the USPSA Rule, not sure why SCSA rules got dragged into this as it was a USPSA Match the OP was talking about.

While in USPSA no chamber flag is required while in a case, the flag is required to comply with ICHDF 8.3.7.3 at the end of the COF. At that time, the competitor must either case/cart the PCC or carry it reasonably vertical while scoring. The PCC is not clear and the range cannot be declared clear until the flag is used. In all of these cases the PCC will be flagged, even though the rules don't require it for cased PCCs. There is no way to get an unflagged PCC into a case at the shooting box at the end of COF. 

 

So, the only way to have an unflagged PCC in a case in USPSA is to have just arrived with it (first stage) and are uncasing it for the first time, or to go to the safe area after COF and intentionally remove the flag (allowed in USPSA, not allowed in SCSA, but not a DQ in either, so if you're a d!@#! you can do it "just for fun," as much as you can keep cocking your hammer in the holster "just for fun" and waste RO's time to escort you to correct the problem). Otherwise, under normal circumstances, all PCCs will be flagged in cases on all but the initial stage. 

 

Importantly, while you can uncase an unflagged PCC at the berm and be in violation of the flag rule (non-DQ violation if unloaded), you cannot insert (or remove) a flag at the berm since that would be considered "gun handling" and can only be done at the safe table. This would be a DQ under 10.5.1. Playing games with flags is unnecessary and silly - PCC should be flagged at all times much like hammer should be down at all times. 

[bret]

31 minutes ago, IVC said:

While in USPSA no chamber flag is required while in a case, the flag is required to comply with ICHDF 8.3.7.3 at the end of the COF. At that time, the competitor must either case/cart the PCC or carry it reasonably vertical while scoring. The PCC is not clear and the range cannot be declared clear until the flag is used. In all of these cases the PCC will be flagged, even though the rules don't require it for cased PCCs. There is no way to get an unflagged PCC into a case at the shooting box at the end of COF. 

 

So, the only way to have an unflagged PCC in a case in USPSA is to have just arrived with it (first stage) and are uncasing it for the first time, or to go to the safe area after COF and intentionally remove the flag (allowed in USPSA, not allowed in SCSA, but not a DQ in either, so if you're a d!@#! you can do it "just for fun," as much as you can keep cocking your hammer in the holster "just for fun" and waste RO's time to escort you to correct the problem). Otherwise, under normal circumstances, all PCCs will be flagged in cases on all but the initial stage. 

 

Importantly, while you can uncase an unflagged PCC at the berm and be in violation of the flag rule (non-DQ violation if unloaded), you cannot insert (or remove) a flag at the berm since that would be considered "gun handling" and can only be done at the safe table. This would be a DQ under 10.5.1. Playing games with flags is unnecessary and silly - PCC should be flagged at all times much like hammer should be down at all times. 

guy brings a PCC up to the line, is given the Make ready command, he uncases his PCC facing downrange, no flag, makes ready, shoots the stage, at if clear hammer down flag, has the case available to put the PCC in the case after hammer down (still does not have a flag) what is the correct thing to do?

Have him bag the PCC after the hammer down command and call the range clear?

or demand he flag the PCC?

 

[Hoops]

There is an interesting NROI article regarding casing/uncasing that addresses USPSA flagging PCC's.....and the continuing confusion about it.

 

If i don't get the link right below, the article is titled "Where can PCC casing/uncasing occur?  USPSA National Range Officers Institute dated July 8, 2019.  I just googled it and easy to find.  It's worth the read.

 

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/where-can-pcc-casing-uncasing-occur/

 

 

 

 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, bret said:

guy brings a PCC up to the line, is given the Make ready command, he uncases his PCC facing downrange, no flag, makes ready, shoots the stage, at if clear hammer down flag, has the case available to put the PCC in the case after hammer down (still does not have a flag) what is the correct thing to do?

The RO cannot clear the range unless the flag is inserted. Rule 8.3.7.3 uses the word "must" and doesn't have an exception to allow skipping this step. Even the sentence that provides for casing at the end of COF starts with "Flagged carbine" - the carbine must be flagged in order to comply with the ICHDF command. 

[driver8M3]

On 1/17/2020 at 11:16 AM, bret said:

5.2.1.4 A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

If it is cased or in a sleeve, no chamber flag is required, above is the USPSA Rule, not sure why SCSA rules got dragged into this as it was a USPSA Match the OP was talking about.

Many here seem to have to same interpretation of 5.2.1.4. And maybe you're all correct.

 

But I have always interpreted 5.2.1.4 to be mean this:

- A chamber safety flag or clear chamber device must be used at all times (including when in a case or sleeve)

- When the firearm is not in a case or sleeve, the chamber safety flag or clear chamber device must be visible externally

 

I thought the reason we force them to always use a flag is that they're allowed to case/uncase (outside of a safety area) without RO supervision. The sentence in the rule isn't constructed very well so I'm not sure which interpretation is correct and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.

[bret]

3 hours ago, IVC said:

The RO cannot clear the range unless the flag is inserted. Rule 8.3.7.3 uses the word "must" and doesn't have an exception to allow skipping this step. Even the sentence that provides for casing at the end of COF starts with "Flagged carbine" - the carbine must be flagged in order to comply with the ICHDF command. 

If you are the R.O. and the shooter doesn't have a chamber flag, what are you going to do?

 

Do you have him hammer down and bag it or stand there waiting for for him to use a chamber flag he doesn't have?

[Hoops]

46 minutes ago, bret said:

If you are the R.O. and the shooter doesn't have a chamber flag, what are you going to do?

 

Do you have him hammer down and bag it or stand there waiting for for him to use a chamber flag he doesn't have?

The RO would have addressed the shooter not having a chamber flag issue at the Make Ready point so it shouldn't have progressed to the hammer down at the end of the stage....especially if the shooter walked from a side berm without a flag.  I wouldn't think that the shooter could walk (or that anyone would want them to) around during scoring without a flag when the RO is busy with the proper scoring.  At the hammer down command, flagging is reguired.  If the shooter lost it during the course of fire, I'm sure a fellow PCC would immediately loan him one.

 

Did you read the NROI article on casing/uncasing?

[IVC]

2 hours ago, driver8M3 said:

I thought the reason we force them to always use a flag is that they're allowed to case/uncase (outside of a safety area) without RO supervision.

Since it's not a DQ event, they can technically uncase at the berm without the flag and even walk around like that. That is, until an RO sees them and escorts them to the safety area to rectify the condition. Then, they can keep on doing it except at the end of COF where the RO must force the issue. 

 

My guess is that it would fall under unsportsmanlike conduct in 10.6 if a person kept violating the flag rule intentionally. 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, bret said:

Do you have him hammer down and bag it or stand there waiting for for him to use a chamber flag he doesn't have?

He must have it, much like a competitor must have a holster. So, yes, waiting for someone to provide a flag.

 

This is quite different from an exception that losing a holster during COF would generate, where the RO would have to clear the range and would have to either make the competitor bag the gun before retreating to rectify the gear problem, or escort the competitor to the safety area. I am not even sure that these types of cases are directly covered by the rules, except that the RO has the responsibility for keeping the range safe, so there is some latitude in what an RO can do in an unexpected situation. 

[bret]

13 minutes ago, IVC said:

He must have it, much like a competitor must have a holster. So, yes, waiting for someone to provide a flag.

 

This is quite different from an exception that losing a holster during COF would generate, where the RO would have to clear the range and would have to either make the competitor bag the gun before retreating to rectify the gear problem, or escort the competitor to the safety area. I am not even sure that these types of cases are directly covered by the rules, except that the RO has the responsibility for keeping the range safe, so there is some latitude in what an RO can do in an unexpected situation. 

casing the PCC is basically the same as having a pistol in a holster, can't sweep yourself or others with a properly cased PCC, even with no chamber flag or a holstered pistol.

have seen many shooters where their buddy has a friend bring a case to where the shooter is finishing the stage, after they finished shooting and after iCHD, they bagged it, RO called range clear.

That is actually a much better way IMO because a lot of people when carrying a PCC especially muzzle down sweep themselves and others and shorter shooters carrying it muzzle up sometimes sweep taller shooters if they aren't careful.

Not having a chamber flag is not a DQ

[IVC]

17 minutes ago, bret said:

have seen many shooters where their buddy has a friend bring a case to where the shooter is finishing the stage, after they finished shooting and after iCHD, they bagged it, RO called range clear.

Rules don't allow this. 

[IVC]

18 minutes ago, bret said:

That is actually a much better way IMO because a lot of people when carrying a PCC especially muzzle down sweep themselves and others and shorter shooters carrying it muzzle up sometimes sweep taller shooters if they aren't careful.

Nothing wrong with bagging on the spot, just put the flag in, then case it. It takes a second to insert the flag and the rules require it. 

[IVC]

19 minutes ago, bret said:

Not having a chamber flag is not a DQ

Correct, but it requires immediate attention by the RO to rectify it. Much like being "required" doesn't mean it's automatically a DQ, "not being a DQ" doesn't mean it is allowed. 

[bret]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

Rules don't allow this. 

5.2.1.4  A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

If the PCC is in case or a sleeve a chamber flag is NOT required. 

[bret]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

Correct, but it requires immediate attention by the RO to rectify it. Much like being "required" doesn't mean it's automatically a DQ, "not being a DQ" doesn't mean it is allowed. 

wrong

 

5.2.1.4  A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all  times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

[Nevadazielmeister]

This just keeps going, with people unable to comprehend or read the rules. Amazing. 

 

Thank you bret. Keep up the good fight bro in helping these folks. 

 

I really recommend people take the NROI Range Office class so they can better understand the rules. I mean... really. 

[Hoops]

I would be interested in knowing if anyone who has posted on this subject is actually an NROI Range Officer?  If you are, can you please offer a NROI based response?

 

Has anyone who has posted on this subject shot at matches other than Tier 1, for example at the world shoot, and comment what the PCC flagging procedure was at those high level matches?

 

The July 8, 2019 NROI open letter on casing/uncasing of PCC's summarized in the 3rd from last paragraph stating that anyone who hasn't flagged their cased PCC should go to the safe table and do so.

 

My interest from the start of this post was to get clarity on the flagging requirements in USPSA (and SC).  From what I have read, I am going to take the 60 seconds and flag my carbine before I put in the case for the match.  With so many versions, it just seems the safe and logical thing to do.

 

 

 

 

[Diver123]

8.3.7.3 Flagged carbines may also be cased at this time and transported off the stage in the case. These words are in the rule book. This is after the ULSC and ICHDFLag command is given. It says flagged carbines may be cased at this time. It says nothing about just bagging one without a flag. 5.2.1.4 says a chamber flag must be used at all times. It has to be visible when uncased or not in a sleeve but what it also doesn't say is that when its in a sock or sleeve that the chamber flag isn't required.

[Nevadazielmeister]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

I would be interested in knowing if anyone who has posted on this subject is actually an NROI Range Officer?  If you are, can you please offer a NROI based response?

 

Has anyone who has posted on this subject shot at matches other than Tier 1, for example at the world shoot, and comment what the PCC flagging procedure was at those high level matches?

 

If you read carefully, you will get your answer. I am NROI certified having been to Level II and Level III matches. Please refer to my FIRST post regarding this issue. It is just that simple. I do not think that I can explain it any other way. 

 

Please don't be an "askhole" (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dont-askhole-fred-blumenberg) here. Now maybe you really don't get it, or maybe you don't want to, but really, please, just read the rules posted here and move on. 

[bret]

6 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

This just keeps going, with people unable to comprehend or read the rules. Amazing. 

 

Thank you bret. Keep up the good fight bro in helping these folks. 

 

I really recommend people take the NROI Range Office class so they can better understand the rules. I mean... really. 

Part of the problem is the rule book says 2 different things, in the rule I posted a chamber flag is not required if the PCC is in a sleeve or a case.

 

I am a CRO, Multigun and SCSA Endorsed.

 

A chamber flag should be used at all times, even in a case, NROI should issue a ruling on it, or clean up the discrepancy in the rule book on it.

Edited January 20, 2020 by bret