PCC Flag - absence thereof

[Jollymon32]

I was working as RM for an L2 match this weekend.  Got a call from a stage.  RO informs me that the PCC shooter did not have a flag on his carbine when they unbagged.

 

I ascertained that the shooter carried the PCC in a backpack that covered the trigger guard and that he had uncased the PCC on the line under RO supervision.  

 

I ruled that there was no harm no foul whatsoever under 5.2.1.4, specifically quoting the usage of the word “whenever” (bold and underlined below):

 

A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

 

I also mentioned the similarity of the second sentence to 5.2.2 in the case of a firearm with the hammer cocked, and that there is no harm and no foul SO LONG AS THE FIREARM is not loaded.

 

However, there was significant discord among range lawyers that this represents a safety infraction and one in which a DQ is warranted (no DQ was given - I ruled and that was that).

 

Subsequent review of the rules shows absolutely no reference to a DQ for a failure to have a safety flag on a PCC, just corrective action in a safe area.  The DQ offence is IF the firearm is loaded.

 

So, what say you all – is this the correct call?  Please cite rules as there is a delicious chicken wing dinner that rests on the balance of the outcome!

[Sarge]

You were right.

[Nevadazielmeister]

Winner winner, chicken wing dinner. You sir made the correct call. The rules to PPC reads:

 

"PCC: Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their pistol caliber carbine:

 

     5.2.1.3 With no ammunition or magazines inserted.

     5.2.1.4 A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made."

 

Because the shooter carried the firearm to the line completely inside his backpack, and only removed it under the direct supervision and command of a Range Officer, he was in compliance. 

 

I want to thank you OP for having the courage to stick up to ignorance and making the right call. Far too many RO's get power hungry and like to call people for violations resulting in DQ's without true justification. I understand that these are safety related, but in essence, the shooter WAS being safe, so tell those law enforcement wannabe's to back down. There's nothing to see here. 

[Jollymon32]

1 minute ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

Winner winner, chicken wing dinner. You sir made the correct call. The rules to PPC reads:

 

"PCC: Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their pistol caliber carbine:

 

     5.2.1.3 With no ammunition or magazines inserted.

     5.2.1.4 A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made."

 

Because the shooter carried the firearm to the line completely inside his backpack, and only removed it under the direct supervision and command of a Range Officer, he was in compliance. 

 

I want to thank you OP for having the courage to stick up to ignorance and making the right call. Far too many RO's get power hungry and like to call people for violations resulting in DQ's without true justification. I understand that these are safety related, but in essence, the shooter WAS being safe, so tell those law enforcement wannabe's to back down. There's nothing to see here. 

To be clear here, the RO THOUGHT there was a safety infraction and escalated to the RM to make a decision - in my briefing to them they were instructed that when in doubt, stop and call me.  The range lawyers that I mentioned were not the RO's but the competitors.

[Schutzenmeister]

1 minute ago, Jollymon32 said:

The range lawyers that I mentioned were not the RO's but the competitors.

Them's usually the worst kind of DRLs!

[driver8M3]

Was that the first stage?

[Jollymon32]

1 hour ago, driver8M3 said:

Was that the first stage?

Second stage.  I know where you are going with this.  And this was inquired into.  

[driver8M3]

7 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

Second stage.  I know where you are going with this.  And this was inquired into.  

[bret]

I had an RO freak out a little because I came to the line with a flagged PCC, with the bolt open, the CRO had to tell him to calm down.

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Them's usually the worst kind of DRLs!

It is the professional non shooting Range Officers and RMs that are the worst, you would think they would pick up a rule book or look at a rule when a competitor quotes it or tries to show them a rule that applies.

 

[broadside72]

What is a "case" or a "sleeve" in this instance? OP says the gun was in a backpack with the trigger guard covered, that does not necessarily mean the entire rifle was "encased".  Usually "cased" mean fully enclosed because you can't call range is clear until the bag is completely zippered. 

 

Would it be okay to carry a handgun around with just a trigger lock on it and not in a bag/case? That would be the handgun equivalent.  

 

Only asking for reference is all, trying to understand what is acceptable and what is not. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by broadside72

[Sarge]

7 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

What is a "case" or a "sleeve" in this instance? OP says the gun was in a backpack with the trigger guard covered, that does not necessarily mean the entire rifle was "encased".  Usually "cased" mean fully enclosed because you can't call range is clear until the bag is completely zippered. 

 

Would it be okay to carry a handgun around with just a trigger lock on it and not in a bag/case? That would be the handgun equivalent.  

 

Only asking for reference is all, trying to understand what is acceptable and what is not. 

Questions like this can open up the biggest can of worms in the world. But some cans need opened. Kind of like the new Techwear scabbard that appears to be very similar to a gun sack. Trigger might not be visible but it certainly seems accessible?

[Nevadazielmeister]

4 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

To be clear here, the RO THOUGHT there was a safety infraction and escalated to the RM to make a decision - in my briefing to them they were instructed that when in doubt, stop and call me.  The range lawyers that I mentioned were not the RO's but the competitors.

 

Well, either way, you did well. Thank you.

 

Isn't it strange that the most ignorant scream the most? Let this be a lesson kids. Get your NROI certification so you too can stop screaming. 

[ADulay]

Perhaps the confusion came in because the flag IS required, even in the bag, under Steel Challenge (USPSA) rules?

 

AD

 

[Jollymon32]

5 minutes ago, ADulay said:

Perhaps the confusion came in because the flag IS required, even in the bag, under Steel Challenge (USPSA) rules?

 

AD

 

This would make SIGNIFICANT sense as the two who were saying is was a DQ are Steel Challenge competitors (and REAL GOOD competitors at that - most likely GM's).

[broadside72]

The simple answer here is this:

 

Quote

“If Clear, Hammer Down, Flag”

 

Flag is required

[Jollymon32]

2 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

The simple answer here is this:

 

 

Flag is required

 

And yet 5.2.1.4 provides for not having a flag: "A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.".  It even provides how to address a situation where a flag is not present and the firearm is not in a case or sleeve  "Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made"

 

What the rules do not provide for, anywhere, is a DQ for not having a chamber flag.  

 

In reality the simple answer is to provide the rule that you would quote when DQ'ing the competitor for having an unloaded PCC without a flag.

 

 

 

[broadside72]

1 minute ago, Jollymon32 said:

 

And yet 5.2.1.4 provides for not having a flag: "A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.".  It even provides how to address a situation where a flag is not present and the firearm is not in a case or sleeve  "Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made"

 

What the rules do not provide for, anywhere, is a DQ for not having a chamber flag.  

 

In reality the simple answer is to provide the rule that you would quote when DQ'ing the competitor for having an unloaded PCC without a flag.

 

 

 

 

When are you going to have a shooter with a cased/sleeved PCC while you are giving proper range commands? During that command, the PCC is out and in hand at that point.

[Jollymon32]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

 

When are you going to have a shooter with a cased/sleeved PCC while you are giving proper range commands? During that command, the PCC is out and in hand at that point.

 

Well, he is the on deck shooter - no need to take corrective action - being that the only corrective action to take is to ensure the gun is not loaded and put in a flag.  But if you were a stickler for the rules, you could take corrective action of having him put a flag in, and then issue the Make Ready command again and he takes the flag out - not sure why you would do that, given that he did not take the firearm out of the bag until the RO issued the Make Ready command (see original post, "uncased on the line, under RO supervision ).

 

[broadside72]

 

Well, he is the on deck shooter - no need to take corrective action - being that the only corrective action to take is to ensure the gun is not loaded and put in a flag.  But if you were a stickler for the rules, you could take corrective action of having him put a flag in, and then issue the Make Ready command again and he takes the flag out - not sure why you would do that, given that he did not take the firearm out of the bag until the RO issued the Make Ready command (see original post, "uncased on the line, under RO supervision ).

 

So for the very first stage its fine to not have it at make ready assuming he unbags at the line but after that it should be there since it's part of the range commands to flag. Unless the shooter goes to the safe table after every stage and removes it, which would seem strange.

 

Can you bag directly at the line without flagging first?

 

 

 

[Jollymon32]

Just now, broadside72 said:

So for the very first stage its fine to not have it at make ready assuming he unbags at the line but after that it should be there since it's part of the range commands to flag. Unless the shooter goes to the safe table after every stage and removes it, which would seem strange.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

 

So it is not the first stage and somehow the RO on the previous stage screwed up and after they ensured the firearm was clear did not follow through to ensure that it was flagged.

 

Do we DQ the shooter on the next stage?  And if you do so, what rule do you state?  

 

[broadside72]

Who says it is a DQ? It is a correctable condition. It does not need to be corrected in that particular instance since it is being unbagged under direct supervision. But after that, it is supposed to be flagged since the range command requires it. If it is found to be missing later, it needs to be fixed. If it continues to be missing then the MD/RM should address it.

[Jollymon32]

36 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Who says it is a DQ? It is a correctable condition. It does not need to be corrected in that particular instance since it is being unbagged under direct supervision. But after that, it is supposed to be flagged since the range command requires it. If it is found to be missing later, it needs to be fixed. If it continues to be missing then the MD/RM should address it.

I’m sorry bud, I thought you were responding to the original post.

[IVC]

Correct call. To DQ someone, there must be a specific rule. There isn’t one for this scenario because it’s allowed. 

[bret]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:46 PM, Sarge said:

Questions like this can open up the biggest can of worms in the world. But some cans need opened. Kind of like the new Techwear scabbard that appears to be very similar to a gun sack. Trigger might not be visible but it certainly seems accessible?

Gun case/bag

A carrying device that does not allow access to, or manipulation of, the trigger while fully encasing the firearm.

[bret]

On 1/13/2020 at 8:13 AM, Jollymon32 said:

I was working as RM for an L2 match this weekend.  Got a call from a stage.  RO informs me that the PCC shooter did not have a flag on his carbine when they unbagged.

 

I ascertained that the shooter carried the PCC in a backpack that covered the trigger guard and that he had uncased the PCC on the line under RO supervision.  

 

I ruled that there was no harm no foul whatsoever under 5.2.1.4, specifically quoting the usage of the word “whenever” (bold and underlined below):

 

A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

 

I also mentioned the similarity of the second sentence to 5.2.2 in the case of a firearm with the hammer cocked, and that there is no harm and no foul SO LONG AS THE FIREARM is not loaded.

 

However, there was significant discord among range lawyers that this represents a safety infraction and one in which a DQ is warranted (no DQ was given - I ruled and that was that).

 

Subsequent review of the rules shows absolutely no reference to a DQ for a failure to have a safety flag on a PCC, just corrective action in a safe area.  The DQ offence is IF the firearm is loaded.

 

So, what say you all – is this the correct call?  Please cite rules as there is a delicious chicken wing dinner that rests on the balance of the outcome!

yes the call you made was correct, don't know where people get the idea it is a DQ.

If the firearm was loaded, then it is a DQ for a loaded firearm, the chamber flag or absence of a chamber flag would not matter in the case of a loaded gun.