PCC Flag - absence thereof

[Hoops]

13 minutes ago, bret said:

Part of the problem is the rule book says 2 different things, in the rule I posted a chamber flag is not required if the PCC is in a sleeve or a case.

 

I am a CRO, Multigun and SCSA Endorsed.

 

A chamber flag should be used at all times, even in a case, NROI should issue a ruling on it, or clean up the discrepancy in the rule book on it.

Bret, Thank you for your reply.  

part of the confusion goes back to the original provisional Appendix 8, D8, PCC Division, item 14 which reads “Handling requirements- cased/bagged (note that carbine must be chamber flagged in all instances).  This has been the intent from the outset.

 

There are conflicts in the current rules that NROI or Troy should address.  I spent nearly 50 years in contract resolutions and I can attest that in most cases both sides could offer compelling arguments due largely to conflicting language.  

 

I’m confident that the issue of flags will get addressed.  It’s a game but with lethal weapons so egos aside, we want to be as safe as we can reasonably be with clear procedures.

 

Happy shooting folks....be safe
 

 

 

[Schutzenmeister]

9 hours ago, Hoops said:

 

Has anyone who has posted on this subject shot at matches other than Tier 1, for example at the world shoot, and comment what the PCC flagging procedure was at those high level matches?

 

 

Couple of things here:

 

- There has never been a PCC World Shoot.  The first one is slated to be held in Florida in 2021.

 

- A World Shoot would (must) be shot under IPSC rules, not USPSA rules.  IPSC rules are different from USPSA rules.

 

- IPSC rules do provide for a potential DQ for an unflagged PCC.  (IPSC PCC rules 5.2.1 and 10.5.1)

[bret]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Couple of things here:

 

- There has never been a PCC World Shoot.  The first one is slated to be held in Florida in 2021.

 

- A World Shoot would (must) be shot under IPSC rules, not USPSA rules.  IPSC rules are different from USPSA rules.

 

- IPSC rules do provide for a potential DQ for an unflagged PCC.  (IPSC PCC rules 5.2.1 and 10.5.1)

Mike,

As a CRO of a stage or an RM.

If a shooter does not have a chamber flag, he comes to the line is given the make ready , he un bags a PCC no chamber flag, makes ready, shoots the stage, at ICHD, Flag, does hammer down and his buddy is there with a case, would you allow him to bag the PCC after hammer down and then call the range clear?

people forget chamber flags, lose them etc. as an RM would you get upset over a PCC shooter bagging in lieu of using a chamber flag?

5.2.1.4 says it is allowed, at least the way I read it.



PCC: Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their pistol caliber carbine:

 

5.2.1.4  A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all  times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

Edited January 20, 2020 by bret
added rule

[Schutzenmeister]

Bret - Two things ...

 

I'd rather not get too deep into the middle of this particular discussion.  There are some differences in wordings between USPSA (PCC and/or MG) rules wordings and those in SC … BOTH of which being administered by the same folks!  To the best of my knowledge and belief, Troy and the RMIs are aware of these discrepancies and, I suspect are in the process of addressing them.  I'm willing to wait for a little while longer to see what (if any) changes come about in the wordings of one or both sets of rules.

 

Hoops asked a specific question concerning "world shoot" experience with respect to this topic.  (See my previous post …)  It IS possible to be DQ'd under IPSC rules for what we're talking about.  I'm not going to get into the wording of those rules here and now.  For anyone who's truly interested in them I've given the references in my earlier post.

 

However, in answer to your question … I don't believe I'd get terribly wrapped around the axel over it given the current wordings in the rules.  And yes - I have seen (on more than one occasion) a shooter request to bag his HG rather than holster it at the end of a CoF.  I have never made an issue of it, nor have I heard of an issue being made of it.  I cannot envision why PCC should be any different in this respect.

 

Much of this discussion, IMHO, is becoming somewhat Shakespearean … a.k.a., Much Ado About Nothing  (Just a personal opinion - We're ALL entitled to those!)  Let's wait and see if there are some minor tweaks made to the rules for this year and what, if anything, they say on this topic.

 

Mike

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Bret - Two things ...

 

I'd rather not get too deep into the middle of this particular discussion.  There are some differences in wordings between USPSA (PCC and/or MG) rules wordings and those in SC … BOTH of which being administered by the same folks!  To the best of my knowledge and belief, Troy and the RMIs are aware of these discrepancies and, I suspect are in the process of addressing them.  I'm willing to wait for a little while longer to see what (if any) changes come about in the wordings of one or both sets of rules.

 

Hoops asked a specific question concerning "world shoot" experience with respect to this topic.  (See my previous post …)  It IS possible to be DQ'd under IPSC rules for what we're talking about.  I'm not going to get into the wording of those rules here and now.  For anyone who's truly interested in them I've given the references in my earlier post.

 

However, in answer to your question … I don't believe I'd get terribly wrapped around the axel over it given the current wordings in the rules.  And yes - I have seen (on more than one occasion) a shooter request to bag his HG rather than holster it at the end of a CoF.  I have never made an issue of it, nor have I heard of an issue being made of it.  I cannot envision why PCC should be any different in this respect.

 

Much of this discussion, IMHO, is becoming somewhat Shakespearean … a.k.a., Much Ado About Nothing  (Just a personal opinion - We're ALL entitled to those!)  Let's wait and see if there are some minor tweaks made to the rules for this year and what, if anything, they say on this topic.

 

Mike

Only problem I see is that the range commend says to flag at end of COF just like pistol says .holster, BUT a pistol is inert while holstered and you can’t be DQ’ed for sweeping while holstered but you can with a flagged PCC.

  I believe another difference is with pistol you are given permission to holster because the gun is clear. You are being required to flag to show the PCC is unloaded.

 I don’t know what changes could be made that would simplify things. If you make flagging optional then people will Get confused and un bag in a berm and carry an unflagged rifle to the line.

[IVC]

16 hours ago, bret said:

5.2.1.4  A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

If the PCC is in case or a sleeve a chamber flag is NOT required. 

The relevant rule here is 8.3.7.3, not 5.2.1.4 - without a flag you can't clear the range and without clear range you can't get to transporting PCC and accompanying rules. 

 

So, yes, flag is not required in the case, but you can't case it without a flag once you have it in your hands outside the safety area. You can't finish the COF without a flag and you can't have it in your hands without a flag after the COF. Even if you found a way to end up with an unflagged PCC in your hands, it would be a violation that would require an RO to take you to the safety area. 

[IVC]

16 hours ago, bret said:

wrong

Only if we are talking about different things - if you have a PCC in a case, you do NOT need the flag, but we are talking about having a PCC in the hand, as in you have finished shooting and are given the ICHDF command, or as in carrying it around with the muzzle pointed up. 

[IVC]

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

However, in answer to your question … I don't believe I'd get terribly wrapped around the axel over it given the current wordings in the rules.  And yes - I have seen (on more than one occasion) a shooter request to bag his HG rather than holster it at the end of a CoF.  I have never made an issue of it, nor have I heard of an issue being made of it.  I cannot envision why PCC should be any different in this respect.

The current rules allow PCCs to be cased, but they also require a flag at that time (8.3.7.3). On the other hand, handguns technically cannot be cased - they must be holstered first, then require a separate command from the RO to allow the competitor to bag the handgun from the holster, which is sort of a mess. 

 

It's most likely that both 5.2.4.1 and 8.3.7.3 will be updated. The former to require a flag at all times (avoids confusion and there is no need to fiddle with unflagged PCCs anyways), and the latter to allow bagging of all guns, including handguns, at ICHDH (which is what people already do, as you pointed out). 

[Hoops]

Below is link from USPSA Downrange Multibriefs.  It can be located at the Multibrief Downrange files dated December 28, 2017.  The article was based on discussion at the Optics Nationals that year.  The top section goes into detail how they handled the two rules shown at the bottom of the article.

 

http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/uspsa/pcc-handling.pdf

 

 

 

 

[Hoops]

Another Multibrief article by Troy McManus dated 3-15-18

 

http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/USPSA/PCC_Is_Still_Not_a_Crime.pdf

[Schutzenmeister]

19 hours ago, Sarge said:

 

I believe another difference is with pistol you are given permission to holster because the gun is clear. You are being required to flag to show the PCC is unloaded.

 

 

Actually, the PCC is required to "If clear, hammer down, flag." The hammer down, just as with HG, is what proves the gun is clear.  Many long gun shooters (PCC, R, and SG) will put their flag down into the magwell rather than into the chamber.  Under USPSA rules this perfectly acceptable but, it does nothing to prove the chamber is empty. 

 

Holstering a HG or flagging a long gun renders the gun functionally inoperative.  One cannot pull the trigger on a HG because it is not accessable while holstered.  The long gun cannot be fired because the bolt is blocked from battery - but this by itself does not prove the chamber is empty. 

[Hoops]

I sent an email(s) to Troy himself and asked the question of flagging.  His response that I got today.  You can see my question to Troy and his answer in each email. 

 

Email number 1

 

Question:

Are chamber flags required when PCC is cased?

Unload and show clear commands includes Flag.

some USPSA shooters are saying rules don’t require flagged when cased.  I disagree.

thank you

 

Answer:

You are correct.  See my other email.

 

Troy

 

—

Troy McManus

Director, National Range Officers Institute

https://nroi.org

https://uspsa.org/

https://steelchallenge.com/

 

Email number 2

 

Question:

Hi,

I sent an earlier email requesting clarification.  Today, the subject of required flagging in a cased bag was raging at one of the local matches.

Is there some straightforward way of saying when you step into the shooters box and remove your carbine from your cased bag at Make Ready, that it should be flagged?

I hope this email can get answered.

 

Answer:

5.2.1.4    A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all 

times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. 

 

This rule clearly states that a chamber safety flag must be in place at all times.  It also says that it must be visible when the firearm is not cased or covered up.  What it does not say is that a flag isn't needed in a case, and the range commands support that.  See the entire 8.3.7 section and note the word "must", particularly in 8.3.7.3, "must" holster or flag...

 

The PCC must be flagged before placing it into a case, per the range commands, and therefore, it must come out of the case flagged, and must be flagged while cased.

 

Troy

 

 

 

—

Troy McManus

Director, National Range Officers Institute

https://nroi.org

https://uspsa.org/

https://steelchallenge.com/

 

 

[Jollymon32]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

I sent an email(s) to Troy himself and asked the question of flagging.  His response that I got today.  You can see my question to Troy and his answer in each email. 

 

Email number 1

 

Question:

Are chamber flags required when PCC is cased?

Unload and show clear commands includes Flag.

some USPSA shooters are saying rules don’t require flagged when cased.  I disagree.

thank you

 

Answer:

You are correct.  See my other email.

 

Troy

 

—

Troy McManus

Director, National Range Officers Institute

https://nroi.org

https://uspsa.org/

https://steelchallenge.com/

 

Email number 2

 

Question:

Hi,

I sent an earlier email requesting clarification.  Today, the subject of required flagging in a cased bag was raging at one of the local matches.

Is there some straightforward way of saying when you step into the shooters box and remove your carbine from your cased bag at Make Ready, that it should be flagged?

I hope this email can get answered.

 

Answer:

5.2.1.4    A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all 

times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. 

 

This rule clearly states that a chamber safety flag must be in place at all times.  It also says that it must be visible when the firearm is not cased or covered up.  What it does not say is that a flag isn't needed in a case, and the range commands support that.  See the entire 8.3.7 section and note the word "must", particularly in 8.3.7.3, "must" holster or flag...

 

The PCC must be flagged before placing it into a case, per the range commands, and therefore, it must come out of the case flagged, and must be flagged while cased.

 

Troy

 

 

 

—

Troy McManus

Director, National Range Officers Institute

https://nroi.org

https://uspsa.org/

https://steelchallenge.com/

 

 

 

That's all fine and dandy, but the nature of the original post was not whether it was required, but rather whether not having it was a DQ.

 

 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

I sent an email(s) to Troy himself and asked the question of flagging.  His response that I got today.  You can see my question to Troy and his answer in each email. 

Great - thank you for getting the clarification.

 

It didn't even occur to me that the wording of 5.2.1.4 actually means:

• ...(must be used at all times) and (be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.)

and not

• ...must be used (at all times and be visible externally) (whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.)

My argument was solely based on 8.3.7.3 and the requirement to use a flag in order to complete the COF and get to the clear range. I'm actually glad not only that the issue is clarified, but that the correct (and somewhat obvious) meaning is the same as in SCSA - must be flagged at all times, whether cased or not. It's just the flag that can be hidden (for obvious reasons) when the gun is in a case. 

 

So, it's pretty much one set of simple rules across the board. That's the good news. Now if we could only get to the proper way to handle a pistol shooter who wants to bag the gun instead of holstering at ICHDH... (completely different topic, I know, but it was raised in the thread.)

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

Now if we could only get to the proper way to handle a pistol shooter who wants to bag the gun instead of holstering at ICHDH... (completely different topic, I know, but it was raised in the thread.)

 

Why not start a thread on that before this one gets cluttered with another topic?

[motosapiens]

On 1/20/2020 at 2:27 AM, bret said:

Part of the problem is the rule book says 2 different things, in the rule I posted a chamber flag is not required if the PCC is in a sleeve or a case.

 

 

 

I can see where someone might think it said that. To me it clearly does NOT say the flag is not required if the pcc is in a sleeve or case, but if it's possible for someone to misinterpret it, it should probably be reworded.

 

fwiw, I worked the pcc nationals, and we did not and would not allow someone to put their gun in a case unflagged. We did not call range is clear until the flag was inserted.

[motosapiens]

On 1/20/2020 at 8:21 AM, bret said:

Mike,

As a CRO of a stage or an RM.

If a shooter does not have a chamber flag, he comes to the line is given the make ready , he un bags a PCC no chamber flag, makes ready, shoots the stage, at ICHD, Flag, does hammer down and his buddy is there with a case, would you allow him to bag the PCC after hammer down and then call the range clear?

absolutely not. I can't call the range clear if the pcc doesn't have a flag. When pcc's first came out, we were advised to have a zip-tie or two handy for just that situation.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, IVC said:

Now if we could only get to the proper way to handle a pistol shooter who wants to bag the gun instead of holstering at ICHDH... (completely different topic, I know, but it was raised in the thread.)

 

we've been doing this for years. if the shooter wants to bag the gun, I say 'if clear, hammer down and bag'. This is not unusual on windy dusty days.

 

frequently the RM has a bagged gun for calibration instead of wearing one on his hip all day.

[Hoops]

4 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

 

That's all fine and dandy, but the nature of the original post was not whether it was required, but rather whether not having it was a DQ.

 

 

Yes sir, it was indeed that.

 

Just curious because i didn't read it in the post.  Did you immediately require the shooter to flag his PCC and the shooter completed Stage 2 and the remainder of the match using the chamber flag?

 

Thank you..............

[ima45dv8]

Bagging discussion split to a new thread:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/282095-ichdh-can-you-bag-instead-of-holster/

 

[Jollymon32]

14 hours ago, Hoops said:

Yes sir, it was indeed that.

 

Just curious because i didn't read it in the post.  Did you immediately require the shooter to flag his PCC and the shooter completed Stage 2 and the remainder of the match using the chamber flag?

 

Thank you..............

 When I was called, the shooter was on the line with his PCC  and under RO supervision, the MR command had been issued.  It was on the issuance of the MR command that the RO noticed that there was no flag.   At this point, the only remediation was to ensure that the RO verify that at the end of the COF the PCC was flagged. A fellow competitor loaned the shooter a flag. 

[Hoops]

Understand the sequence of

events now.

 

i agree with your decision FWIW.

 

Thank you sir