PCC Flag - absence thereof

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Is this a comparable situation..

After a stage is shot and the commands of 

if clear ,hammer down and holster are given the competitor quickly holsters without dropping the hammer ? 

Not exactly the same, I know. 

[Jollymon32]

17 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Is this a comparable situation..

After a stage is shot and the commands of 

if clear ,hammer down and holster are given the competitor quickly holsters without dropping the hammer ? 

Not exactly the same, I know. 

If that occurs, you don’t call the range clear and repeat the command.

[IVC]

14 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

If that occurs, you don’t call the range clear and repeat the command.

Unless it's loaded. Then you also DQ the competitor if he didn't engage the safety. 

[Barcode1337]

1 hour ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Is this a comparable situation..

After a stage is shot and the commands of 

if clear ,hammer down and holster are given the competitor quickly holsters without dropping the hammer ? 

Not exactly the same, I know. 

 

I think a more comparable situation would be:

After a stage is shot and the commands of ICHDH are given and the competitor goes to holster but..... doesn't have the holster anymore? Since flagging is more equivalent to holstering. Right? Or maybe I lost the train of this thread.

[Bench]

29 minutes ago, Barcode1337 said:

 

I think a more comparable situation would be:

After a stage is shot and the commands of ICHDH are given and the competitor goes to holster but..... doesn't have the holster anymore? Since flagging is more equivalent to holstering. Right? Or maybe I lost the train of this thread.

One thing I haven't seen being mentioned is the "bagging" comparisons across firearms at ICHDH. Or is "bagging" limited to Level 1 matches?

[teros135]

42 minutes ago, Barcode1337 said:

 

I think a more comparable situation would be:

After a stage is shot and the commands of ICHDH are given and the competitor goes to holster but..... doesn't have the holster anymore? Since flagging is more equivalent to holstering. Right? Or maybe I lost the train of this thread.

 

No, flagging is not equivalent to holstering.  It's a necessary part of safeing the gun, but you still have to bag or case the gun, in a container (bag or case) that makes the trigger inaccessible and incapable of being manipulated (like a holster does - both of them per the rules).  You can't have someone handling a gun (other than holding it muzzle up or down) without both a flag and a case (except at a safe area or under the direction and control of a RO, of course). 

[mchapman]

32 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

No, flagging is not equivalent to holstering.  It's a necessary part of safeing the gun, but you still have to bag or case the gun, in a container (bag or case) that makes the trigger inaccessible and incapable of being manipulated (like a holster does - both of them per the rules).  You can't have someone handling a gun (other than holding it muzzle up or down) without both a flag and a case (except at a safe area or under the direction and control of a RO, of course). 

I don't quite agree with all of what you said, in particular the case part. If the shooter is using a buggy or cart, I don't think that the gun has to be cased. It must be flagged and mounted  in the buggy parked and pointing to the berm, at or by the PCC area, and can be carried muzzle up or down up to the line or when done shooting the stage after meeting all of the stage ROs if finished unload and show clear hammer down and flag. I may be mistaken about this, but don't think so or I misunderstood what you meant.

[Hoops]

I shoot predominantly Steel Challenge.  The issue I run into are Steel Challenge Matches that hosted by USPSA/IPSC match directors and/or with a few more USPSA/IPSC shooters.   I, and my fellow SC shooters, use a shooting cart.  These carts are angled muzzle down at about 55 degrees.  We arrive at the range with gun in bag and take our cart and bag (NO ammo) to the safe table, unbag, FLAG inserted and secure it in our cart.  When it is our turn to shoot, we roll the cart up and wait for make-ready.  Upon command, we remove the gun from the cart.....muzzle downrange at all times....and remove the flag during our make-ready process.  Finish is unload show clear, FLAG and secure in cart.....muzzle downrange at all times.  Perfectly legal.  Yet USPSA/IPSC shooters lament that our carbines should be cased and flagged and using a procedure that requires pointing at a side berm.   One note about carbines.  Unload and show clear should be same as for pistols.  Unload, Show Clear, Hammer down.......then pull bolt back and install flag.  This is not always followed but it should be.....something that our group is working on each time.

 

The other option we use in SC, is an unflagging carbine in a case.  Shooter steps into shooters box and upon make ready command, removes the carbine without a flag, pointing downrange, and makes ready.  Reverse is done upon the show clear command.  Range is clear when bag is zipped up.  Again, USPSA/IPSC shooters get confused with between USPSA and SCSA rules.

 

Anyone else run into this?

[Hoops]

Clarification on unflagging carbines in a case.  

 

What I was saying that if a shooter chooses to leave his/her carbine cased in a bag, it is NOT necessary under SCSA to be flagged.  The case must be zipped/closed. At the make ready command, most set their case/bag on a barrel or table next to the shooters box, remove their carbine.....muzzle downrange....and make ready.  After the show clear commands have been down, the shooter replaces his/her UNFlagged carbine in the case/bag, zipped/secures it and range is safe command is given.

 

Simply put, most confusion with PCC’s is between USPSA rules and SCSA rules.  Keep them separate and there should be no issues....in my opinion.

[Thomas H]

3 hours ago, Hoops said:

Clarification on unflagging carbines in a case.  

 

What I was saying that if a shooter chooses to leave his/her carbine cased in a bag, it is NOT necessary under SCSA to be flagged.  The case must be zipped/closed. At the make ready command, most set their case/bag on a barrel or table next to the shooters box, remove their carbine.....muzzle downrange....and make ready.  After the show clear commands have been down, the shooter replaces his/her UNFlagged carbine in the case/bag, zipped/secures it and range is safe command is given.

 

Simply put, most confusion with PCC’s is between USPSA rules and SCSA rules.  Keep them separate and there should be no issues....in my opinion.

 

Well, there's one of your problems.

 

In SCSA, it IS necessary for your carbine (whether a PCC or a rimfire rifle) to be flagged whether in a bag OR in a cart.

 

SCSA Rules, 1.1:

1. Semi-autos must have chamber and magazine well empty. Rimfire rifles and PCC must have chamber and magazine well empty and bolt closed on a flag and be cased or secured in a cart.

 

Chamber/magwell empty AND bolt closed on a flag AND case or in a cart.

 

So.....that may be why some people are telling you that you need to flag your carbines while in bags.  As for using a berm---it isn't required by the rules, it is merely an option.  If some matches would prefer you to use that option, that's up to them, and they can state their preference. 

 

[broadside72]

3 hours ago, Hoops said:

Clarification on unflagging carbines in a case.  

 

What I was saying that if a shooter chooses to leave his/her carbine cased in a bag, it is NOT necessary under SCSA to be flagged.  The case must be zipped/closed. At the make ready command, most set their case/bag on a barrel or table next to the shooters box, remove their carbine.....muzzle downrange....and make ready.  After the show clear commands have been down, the shooter replaces his/her UNFlagged carbine in the case/bag, zipped/secures it and range is safe command is given.

 

Simply put, most confusion with PCC’s is between USPSA rules and SCSA rules.  Keep them separate and there should be no issues....in my opinion.

 

The RO can not give the Range is Clear command until "If Clear, Hammer Down, Flag" is complied with in USPSA and SCSA. So after the first stage, it should be flagged each time unless the shooter is removing it between stages or allowing it to fall out while bagged/stowed. 

[Hoops]

Oops.....before everyone writes back.......you are correct in SC requiring flag in the case if using a case is your option.  This is what we actually do.  I just mis-spoke.  

 

But what does often happen that we see is cross comparisons of USPSA to SC regarding casing or 3-gun type carts.

[Thomas H]

46 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Oops.....before everyone writes back.......you are correct in SC requiring flag in the case if using a case is your option.  This is what we actually do.  I just mis-spoke.  

 

But what does often happen that we see is cross comparisons of USPSA to SC regarding casing or 3-gun type carts.

 

In both of those cases people can bag, put in cart, or use a berm.  The same situations apply for both sports.  So....what are the problems again?

 

Edited to add the following:
 

Looking at what you originally wrote, you seem to be making two complaints:
1) "Yet USPSA/IPSC shooters lament that our carbines should be cased and flagged and using a procedure that requires pointing at a side berm."  

 

2) "The other option we use in SC, is an unflagging carbine in a case.  Shooter steps into shooters box and upon make ready command, removes the carbine without a flag, pointing downrange, and makes ready.  Reverse is done upon the show clear command.  Range is clear when bag is zipped up.  Again, USPSA/IPSC shooters get confused with between USPSA and SCSA rules."

 

We already know that #2 is incorrect, and the USPSA and SCSA rules match on that one.  Flags are required.  So no actual complaint.

 

But for #1.....I'm still not sure of the problem.  Like I said, USPSA and SCSA have the same set of allowed things here----bag/cart at shooting box, or bag/cart at berm.  Both are legal and allowed.  It is certainly true that many people who shoot a lot think that bag/cart at the berm is FASTER in terms of getting making ready before the stage and clearing the range after the stage, so of course people are going to have opinions on what they'd PREFER people to do.  But....are people saying "Hey, we'd prefer you to do it THIS way because it is faster" an actual problem somehow?

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Thomas H

[Hoops]

I certainly made a mess of my what my initial thoughts were.  Brain fog for sure............in any event.....I'm good.  Thanks.

[Jollymon32]

Gents

Under SCSA rules, is not having a flag in a carbine a DQ?

 

Can you quote the rule that makes this a DQ?  

 

I know nothing of SCSA.

 

Thanks

[Hoops]

rules require flag in PCC and Rimfire.  Cased or cart.  Subject to DQ.
 

However, vertical up/down, 3ft radius from conveyance (transport), facing berm, or backstop language is additional to USPSA.

[Hammer002]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

rules require flag in PCC and Rimfire.  Cased or cart.  Subject to DQ.
 

However, vertical up/down, 3ft radius from conveyance (transport), facing berm, or backstop language is additional to USPSA.

Absolutely not.  This is not a DQ event.  I have to address this so much.  I don't know why people are always looking for a DQ.  I explain it to be the same as having a magazine in a holstered pistol.  A RO must check it.  If unloaded, no harm/no foul, leave the magazine out of it.  If round present in chamber or magazine, DQ for loaded firearm.  Same situation for PCC without a flag.  If unloaded, insert a flag and carry on.

 

Just because a rule states a flag must be used does not make it a DQ if not used.  Disqualifying events are clearly laid out in the rules for both sports.  This is not a DQ for USPSA nor Steel Challenge.  The OP made the right call in the original post.

 

PLEASE!  If you don't know the rules, PLEASE do not interject yourself here nor ESPECIALLY on the range creating confusion and negativity.  This is your second post just in this thread showing you do not know or understand the rules.  Possibly a brush up is needed or at least more listening and less interjection.  Let those trained/educated well enough to make these calls, make the calls without your lacking in knowledge input, or better put, interference.  Especially if you are going to just make things up, and especially if you are making up things as serious as illegitimate competitor disqualification that unnecessarily causes disruption at a match and confusion anywhere else.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

Gents

Under SCSA rules, is not having a flag in a carbine a DQ?

 

Can you quote the rule that makes this a DQ?  

 

I know nothing of SCSA.

 

Thanks

 You made the right call in either sport.  Rules state a flag must be used whether bagged or carted.  However there is no rule making it a disqualification.  As I mentioned above, I treat it like a magazine in a holstered gun.  If unbagged at the stage with no flag, make sure unloaded and bring it to the competitor's attention.  At the end of the stage, ensure a flag is used.

[bret]

16 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 You made the right call in either sport.  Rules state a flag must be used whether bagged or carted.  However there is no rule making it a disqualification.  As I mentioned above, I treat it like a magazine in a holstered gun.  If unbagged at the stage with no flag, make sure unloaded and bring it to the competitor's attention.  At the end of the stage, ensure a flag is used.

5.2.1.4 A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

If it is cased or in a sleeve, no chamber flag is required, above is the USPSA Rule, not sure why SCSA rules got dragged into this as it was a USPSA Match the OP was talking about.

[Hoops]

I'm graciously bowing out of this topic.  Thank you fellow shooters.  Happy range days.

[Hammer002]

26 minutes ago, bret said:

5.2.1.4 A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

If it is cased or in a sleeve, no chamber flag is required, above is the USPSA Rule, not sure why SCSA rules got dragged into this as it was a USPSA Match the OP was talking about.

 

u obviously only read the first and last post.  go read the thread.  See where others interjected Steel challenge.  Then understand the reason I answered the way I did and answer your own statement.  Hell, even my quote you used was attached to the quote I used asked specifically about Steel Challenge.  Yes, no chamber flag is needed when bagged for uspsa, that was already hashed out.  Exactly where are you confused?  Forums are evolving conversations that many, if not most of the time, can move away from the original post.  Its polite, intelligent, courteous, and even customary to read a thread before jumping in at the end.  Especially to attempt calling someone out for your belief they are at fault of your personal standards you hold the world to from your keyboard and screen.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Hammer002

[bret]

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

u obviously only read the first and last post.  go read the thread.  See where others interjected Steel challenge.  Then understand the reason I answered the way I did and answer your own statement.  Hell, even my quote you used was attached to the quote I used asked specifically about Steel Challenge.  Yes, no chamber flag is needed when bagged for uspsa, that was already hashed out.  Exactly where are you confused?  Forums are evolving conversations that many, if not most of the time, can move away from the original post.  Its polite, intelligent, courteous, and even customary to read a thread before jumping in at the end.  Especially to attempt calling someone out for your belief they are at fault of your personal standards you hold the world to from your keyboard and screen.

SCSA and USPA are two different sports, they have different rules.

 

The original post was about a USPSA match, dragging other rules into it makes no sense.

 

If he wants to discuss SCSA rules he should start another post.

 

 

 

 

[Hoops]

After reading the last few posts, my interest has peaked in USPSA rules for flagging PCC.   So I decided to look it up.

 

There was a statement in one of the posts that cased PCC's do not require chamber flags as does SC. 

 

I read Section 8.3 Range Communication,  specifically 8.3.7, 8.3.7.1, 8.3.7.3 and 8.3.8  and it seems that flags are subsequently required, including when cased after the Range is clear command.  8.3.7.3 describes flagging if the gun proves to be clear, transported back to the start position and off stage to a rack or case.   I'm sure that there are some other sections that clear this up but I didn't see them.

 

This year we plan to shoot some USPSA matches in addition to SC so insight/clarification would be appreciated so that we don't make a mis-step at a future match.  DQ is noted several times in Section 8.3 so definitely want to avoid that.

 

Thanks

[Nevadazielmeister]

57 minutes ago, Hoops said:

After reading the last few posts, my interest has peaked in USPSA rules for flagging PCC.   So I decided to look it up.

 

There was a statement in one of the posts that cased PCC's do not require chamber flags as does SC. 

 

I read Section 8.3 Range Communication,  specifically 8.3.7, 8.3.7.1, 8.3.7.3 and 8.3.8  and it seems that flags are subsequently required, including when cased after the Range is clear command.  8.3.7.3 describes flagging if the gun proves to be clear, transported back to the start position and off stage to a rack or case.   I'm sure that there are some other sections that clear this up but I didn't see them.

 

This year we plan to shoot some USPSA matches in addition to SC so insight/clarification would be appreciated so that we don't make a mis-step at a future match.  DQ is noted several times in Section 8.3 so definitely want to avoid that.

 

Thanks

 

You know, probably better that you get your certification with NROI and then you can ask one of those instructors. Even read the rules carefully. That helps also. 

[Hammer002]

6 hours ago, bret said:

SCSA and USPA are two different sports, they have different rules.

 

The original post was about a USPSA match, dragging other rules into it makes no sense.

 

If he wants to discuss SCSA rules he should start another post.

 

 

 

 

And you have picked me to tell this because?  Well aware the two sports are different, I run matches in both formats.  I was in a discussion responding to others.  Well aware of the original post.  What is or isn’t drug into a conversation you are far from the police of.  If it doesn’t make sense to you, or you can’t keep up, or you went off half-cocked without having actually read the thread does not deem me having to hear your personal problems.  You jumped in, blindly swinging, and now pointing at me that you take issue with others.  Take a hike if you have nothing worthy to submit or decent reason to engage me.  The conversation was actually quite educational to those not understanding the original issue, and furthermore the intricacies in differing sports with different rules they may participate in both of.  That’s how threads work. Maybe next time go outside and yell at some clouds when you get confused.  They will care equally of your attempted imposing of your standards upon others as I do.