Bullets Falling Out Of Cases

[superdude]

2 hours ago, iflyskyhigh said:

 

Yea. We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. And it may just be that this form of communication is leading to us misunderstanding each other.

 

But...I’m pretty sure I’m understanding exactly what you are saying, and you may want to rethink it a little....

 

Guy Neill is correct. The flare die with most straight-wall die sets does more than expand the case mouth. With Dillons, the part of the powder funnel/flare die that goes into the case before the case mouth reaches the 'flare' region is sized ~0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter. For example, my Dillon 38/357 powder funnel measures 0.355" and my Dillon 9mm powder funnel measures 0.353". Whether the sized case needs to be or is 'expanded' a little to prepare the case for the bullet depends on just how much the case has been sized and the case's wall thickness.

 

Thin walled brass might not be 'expanded' at all by this part of the die, while thick walled brass might be obviously expanded there - looking like they had been through a Lyman M-die when they hadn't. 

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, iflyskyhigh said:

 

Sorry. I missed this one. Disregard my undersized comment. I’m surprised a plated bullet is .356.


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did you check or just reading the box. ?  I found their sizing all over the place and tossed the last few hundred I had. 

 

[Guy Neill]

For iflyskyhigh

 

Does the expander plug enter a resized case all the way to the flaring portion when tried by hand (not in the die or the press?

 

It should not if all is normal, meaning that when the force from the press pushes it into the casing, it is sizing the interior of the case.  This is what gives bullet tension uniformity even with varying case wall thickness.

 

Here is a statement from the Lyman die instructions:

 

 The first step of this plug expands the neck to slightly under bullet diameter while the second step expands the first 1/16" of the neck to slightly over bullet diameter. This allows cast bullets to enter the case without shaving lead.

 

Guy

[zzt]

The problem is caused by the excessive bell/flare of the case mouth.  I'll assume you replaced the Dillon expander plug with the one that came with the Mr. Bulletfeeder.  There should be no bell on the top of the case.  If you insist on having some, make it microscopic.  A large bell cannot be fully compressed in the crimping die, so the bullet will not be held firmly.  The MBF does not require any flare to drop a bullet.

 

A Lee FCD will cure an excessive bell, but it will swage the portion of the bullet in the case to .355".  It is better to have no bell in the first place.  If, for some strange reason, you are not using the MBF expander/funnel, do so immediately.

[rwagner24]

 When I first got the bullet feeder I was having issues with my open gun rounds coming loose also.  The problem ended up being exactly what you are describing. At that time I adjusted to die as high as possible that the bullet would remain on top of the brass as an indexed to the seating die.  I will look over everything closer later today. 

[iflyskyhigh]

For iflyskyhigh
 
Does the expander plug enter a resized case all the way to the flaring portion when tried by hand (not in the die or the press?
 
It should not if all is normal, meaning that when the force from the press pushes it into the casing, it is sizing the interior of the case.  This is what gives bullet tension uniformity even with varying case wall thickness.
 
Here is a statement from the Lyman die instructions:
 
 The first step of this plug expands the neck to slightly under bullet diameter while the second step expands the first 1/16" of the neck to slightly over bullet diameter. This allows cast bullets to enter the case without shaving lead.
 
Guy

I stand corrected. I guess. I still don’t get how the powder funnel is creating neck tension. The only thing I can see is if the beginning of the powder funnel was grossly oversized it could over stretch the case neck and and cause the bullet to fall into the case.

I just went to the the garage and sized a 40 SW case. Measured the outside and inside neck diameter. Then by hand pushed the Dillon powder funnel into the case and pulled it back out, and remeasured. The difference was nominal. Maybe 1/2 of a ten thousandth? There was a little resistance when I pushed the powder funnel in and pulled it out, but again it was nominal. I can’t see it having any effect on whether or not the neck would hold the bullet. If I were to grind down that first part of the Dillon powder funnel to a smaller diameter and then use it to flare the case neck I’m confident it would have little to no effect on the operation.

The beginning of the Dillon and MBF 40 funnel is .397. The beginning of the Dillon and MBF 9 funnel is .349. The beginning of the Dillon and MBF 45 funnel is .447.

The Lyman .308 (I don’t have any Lyman pistol expanders to compare)expander is .307 at the tip so it’s much closer to bullet diameter, as is the 40SW expander on the Lee powder through die. It’s .400 at the tip. But the expander tip of the Lee is so short it can’t go far enough into the case to make any difference on “neck tension”.

I did the same experiment with the Lee expander of pushing it into and pulling it out of a sized case and got the same results. It took a little more force than the Dillon to get on and off, but in the end the results were the same.

So to answer you question. Yes you can easily push the expander into a case to the expander portion by hand and pull it out. And I highly doubt every expander I have is out of spec. I guess anything is possible, but it seems highly unlikely.And I’ve loaded and shot 10’s and 10’s of thousands of bullets with zero issues and excellent accuracy. Who knows.

Does that mean my sizing die isn’t sizing down enough or my expander isn’t expanding enough? I doubt either, or again I’m the unluckiest reloaded ever and every one of my products is defective.

I’ll go back too this may boil down a semantics disagreement. Meaning we might be saying the same thing and misunderstanding each due the nature of this form of communication. Further more this disagreement probably has zero effect on the OP’s issues.

So, I was wrong and apologize to the OP for steering the thread off topic. Back to bullets falling out of cases.

Guy, maybe try this experiment and PM me with what you find so we don’t derail this poor gentleman’s thread any longer lol[emoji23]




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[iflyskyhigh]

did you check or just reading the box. ?  I found their sizing all over the place and tossed the last few hundred I had. 
 

Again I was wrong. I’m on a roll.

I have some Frontier 147’s and RMR 147’s and they are a very consistent .356. I have a case of Everglades 147’s as well but the aren’t open so I haven’t measured them.

I’m just going off memory but I know I’ve had plates bullets in the past that were undersized and all over the place sizing wise as well. That’s why I quit using plated bullets as well for the most part. I think they may have been Xtreme and possibly Berry’s???? It’s been awhile.

Sub 147’s are pretty much the only plated bullets I still use. I find the cost savings of plated in general to be negligible and the accuracy to be meh.


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[Sarge]

17 hours ago, iflyskyhigh said:

 

I’m the first one to admit that I could be wrong, but there is no such thing in pistol dies.

 

The only thing inside pistol dies is a decapping pin. It plays no part in the sizing operation. Pistol dies just simply squeeze the case walls back down to spec.

 

Are you taking about a Lyman M die? That has a plug that expands. But has nothing to do with resizing.

 

 

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He’s talking about the powder funnel on Dillon machines. It’s a funnel, expander and flarer.

[bigedp51]

The Lee undersize die will reduce the case diameter .002 to .003 more than a standard die and provide more bullet grip.

 

On a 9mm a taper crimp is used to streamline the case mouth for feeding and not increase bullet grip.

 

Below is a 9mm that was sized in a Lee undersize die to reduce brass spring back after sizing and expanding. As you can see the case is wasp waisted and has increased bullet grip.

 

 

Below the Lyman type "M" expander does not over expand the case mouth and aids in straight inline seating.

 

 

Below step "B" is just slightly larger than bullet diameter and the bullets can be seated into the case mouth by hand. Larger coated bullets may require to have the case mouth bumped onto step "C". Jacketed and plaited bullets only need to be bumped onto step "B".

 

[rwagner24]

Alright guys after three hours of my life I will never get back here is what I tested/measured today. First the specs before moving anything:

A resized case is .375 OD and .349 ID

A belled case removed after the powder measure die is .355 at the very top edge and is gone about .066 down the case wall

Bullet measured .356

I wanted to try to keep the recoil profile the same as possible so I adjusted the charge as I went shorter to maintain 800fps average. I was at 1.145 case overall length so I started with 1.140. I would load 8 rounds and shoot 7 checking the last one for OAL change. I went all the way down to 1.110 and they are still moving outwards. Not as much but still moving. I'm not sure how much shorter is safe to go before I decide these aren't the right bullets for this gun.

[muncie21]

36 minutes ago, rwagner24 said:

Alright guys after three hours of my life I will never get back.  

Considering you are sharing your experience with 1000's of others, I wouldn't consider it 'lost time'.  Someone may stumble on this thread in the future and say, 'ah-ha' that's exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks for taking the time to post up your thoughts, experiments and outcomes.

 

I re-read your original post.  Since this is a revolver and you're seeing the projectile move forward, not back (i.e. setback) are you roll-crimping the loads?  Semi-auto shooters wouldn't normally do this, however it's typical (required?) for revolver shoots.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by muncie21

[GrumpyOne]

The bullets are moving in response to the recoil, right? So, minimize the recoil (grip harder) or roll crimp the rounds. 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, rwagner24 said:

A belled case removed after the powder measure die is .355 at the very top edge and is gone about .066 down the case wall

 

That does not sound like what a MBF funnel does.  Like the M die illustrated above, the MBF funnel is two step.  The bottom expands the case to .354" and the short top section expands to .356".  Your resizing die is not sizing the case correctly.  Try a different one.  I happen to use Hornady dies.  The sizing die squashes the case down to where you cannot push the MBF funnel in by hand.  I only use .355" dia. JHPs in my Open loads and I use a Lee Factory Carbide Crimp die for crimping only (not seating).  The bullets are held very tightly.

 

You may consider changing your bullet profile.  Truncated cone bullets have more bearing surface than round nose.  BTW, I shoot with a bunch of shooters shooting 9mm revolvers for steel challenge.  They all taper crimp.

[rwagner24]

I grip the crap out of all my guns, even my .22’s. I’m using the regular Dillon taper crimp die. Im thinking about trying 95gn Bayous that have the grove and get the roll crimp die. Everything I have read says you shouldn’t roll crimp plated unless it has some sort of groove because it will  damage the plating. 

[muncie21]

Bayou does seem to offer more bullets with the lube groove, however BBI and Brazos also carry a few.  I've only loaded .357 for revolver, however it is my understanding that it is best practice to roll crimp bullets bullets with a lube groove, because of the  potential to damage coating/plating.

[rwagner24]

I ordered a good selection of bayous from 95gn to 160gn. I want to shoot steel challenge and ICORE at some point. Still have to figure out which roll crimp die. Dillons site makes it sound like if you order a 9mm crimp die it comes with both a roll (accu-crimp) and taper crimp die. I have two different guns shops near me that sell Dillon stuff. Might be able to pick one up and confirm this. 

Edited December 25, 2019 by rwagner24

[looking4reloadingdeals]

I ordered a good selection of bayous from 95gn to 160gn. I want to shoot steel challenge and ICORE at some point. Still have to figure out which roll crimp die. Dillons site makes it sound like if you order a 9mm crimp die it comes with both a roll (accu-crimp) and taper crimp die. I have two different guns shops near me that sell Dillon stuff. Might be able to pick one up and confirm this. 

Hornady and Lee both make quality dies as well. I use Lee for most of my pistol reloading and have good luck with them. Also might be easier to single roll crimp die off amazon from Lee (and likely cheaper as well).


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[zzt]

'Normal' Dillon dies resize the case small, then expand.  The produce a wasp wasted case.   Yours is not doing that.  So try a different sizer, not a roll crimp.

[AHI]

rwagner24    

spend some time it the revolver form . the answer to your problem

is there. ill give you a hint bullet selection .you also find that the 929s bore 

is not 9mm but .357 and a twist that begs for heavy bullets (SNS 160RN).

  use real jacked bullets not plated. to get a plated bullet to stay put you have to

all but cut the plating (not good). Heavy (147 up) coated bullets work much better.

again spend some time in the revolver section this has been discussed to great length.

 

 

 

 

 

let the bickering continue

Edited December 25, 2019 by AHI

[rwagner24]

Hi AHI,

     Yeah started reading some of those posts this am. Thanks!

[rwagner24]

 I have that assortment of bullets on the way  and I also ordered a Lee undersized sizing die for 9mm. I’ll do some experimenting with that die to see if I can get away with using my original Dillon taper crimp die. I’m still confused with which 9 mm Roll crimp die everybody is using. I can’t find a 9 mm roll crimp die on anyone’s web site. I called Dillon and they said they only make a taper for 9mm.

Edited December 26, 2019 by rwagner24

[zzt]

The only one I know of was discontinued by  RCBS.

[rwagner24]

I got  some information from a gentleman over in the revolver forums. He told me to use a .38 short Lee roll crimp die. 

[rwagner24]

Got my Lee undersized die today. Went a little shorter on my original OAL so there was more bullet in the case. Can definitely see it grabs the bullet tighter but it still moved. Started with 1.140 shot 7 shots took last out measures 1.147 already. I also got my .38 short roll crimp die. I’m just going to wait on my other bullets that have the groove for the roll crimp.