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perttime

Starting with empty chamber

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During this weekend's IPSC match, one of the Stages required a start with pistol in holster, magazine inserted, but with empty chamber.

 

I hear I wasn't the only one who instinctively racked the slide and engaged safety before holstering. I don't even remember doing it. The next thing I heard was: "Unload and show clear....If clear, hammer down, holster... Let's do it again.

 

You do what you train to do (read: what you usually do).

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least they didnt try to tell u hammer down on a loaded chamber put in box,,, umm this is a Hipower not designed for that.   poorly run IDPA match, ... was icing on cake after multiple issues. Never went back

Edited by Joe4d

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1 hour ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Who would walk around with an empty chamber ?

Who would lay empty gun on table with mags on other table? Who would have gun in a mailbox? Or mags in mailbox? Who would carry a briefcase while in a gunfight? 

  We do lots of impractical things in practical shooting!😂

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3 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Who would walk around with an empty chamber ?

 

Lots of (stupid) people, a very small number of whom might end up spending the rest of their life trying to rack the slide. 

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7 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Who would walk around with an empty chamber ?

 

Looks like it is called the "Israeli Carry".

Not sure how it is now but at least it used to be the default mode for those who carried in Israel.

 

... I didn't walk around with an empty chamber (once I managed to holster the pistol that way): just stood there naturally until the Beep sounded.

 

edit:

The "short" stage was put in a tight spot where putting holes in the ground was to be avoided. First available target less than 2 meters away. A "bullet trap" was used to contain the bullets. I heard that the unusual starting conditions may have been used to spread the hits a bit, to avoid hundreds of rounds in the same place punching through the "bullet trap".

Edited by perttime

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I believe this was standard for our military back in WWII - 7 round mag, no round in chamber  -

before cocked and locked, I guess.  No one gets hurt that way.

 

But, seems kind of useless today, IMHO.

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was also pretty common to carry revolvers hammer down on an empty chamber Still is the default loadout in cowboy and mounted shooting

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First time shooting a PPC match (where the start position is standing, hands relaxed by sides, magazine in pistol, empty chamber), I instinctively racked the slide and lowered the hammer. Habits indeed.

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I had no trouble with the table start stage, in terms of making ready. Putting the unloaded pistol and magazines on the table was different enough from the usual.

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I've never heard of mag in gun hammer down chamber empty.  I've shot a lot of stages with unloaded gun on table with mags in

different locations or all you may need on table, etc.  I know this type of start is common in our sport, but still don't like it.  I have

a holster on my belt for a good reason.......

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Rules allow all sorts of starts. A bit of variety doesn't hurt (except your score, if you can't adapt).

 

I recall doing OK on a stage that started with getting the loaded gun out of a briefcase that was screwed to a table for consistency. The main point on that one, though, was shooting small pieces of paper targets, visible between no-shoots, at some distance. When we got to that stage, there were lots of patched holes in the no-shoots.

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11 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

I believe this was standard for our military back in WWII - 7 round mag, no round in chamber  -

before cocked and locked, I guess.  No one gets hurt that way.

 

But, seems kind of useless today, IMHO.

 

It was military standard, at least among US Navy armed watch standers during the 10 years I spent (1968/1978). Some special units got to carry chamber loaded. But it wasn't the normal. Even in Viet Nam, we were supposed to carry pistols chamber empty. Some of us didn't😆. But with a bit of practice the Israeli Carry does work well... assuming you have two operable hands when they are required. It doesn't make much sense today. But, it's a skill that's still worth learning.... ya never know😁

 

 

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10 minutes ago, GOF said:

 

I never carried a pistol in Viet Nam, just an M16.

I guess Pertime is correct, a bit of variety doesn't hurt and not saying I can't adapt, just saying I'm not a fan of unloaded starts.

Been shooting this sport for over 40 years and have never started a stage with empty chamber, mag in gun, hammer down, holstered.

May have to do that next time and see what the guys think.......

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Last time I was on Bagram Air Field they had different threat conditions that told us how we were supposed to carry the M9. 

 

Also in 3 gun they have a lot of empty chamber starts for pistols due to worry of people's guns falling out while doing something else. "Cruiser Ready" is what 1 local club called it

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1 hour ago, ziebart said:

 

 in 3 gun they have a lot of empty chamber starts for pistols due to worry of people's guns falling out 

 

Now, that makes sense.    :) 

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I think in 3 gun it’s less because of guns falling out and more because at most 3 gun matches, going prone to shoot rifle with a loaded and holstered pistol is a no-no. 

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7 hours ago, GOF said:

... But with a bit of practice the Israeli Carry does work well... assuming you have two operable hands when they are required. ...

 

During a government temp job near Israel, we were required to carry chamber empty. I taught myself to rack the P226 slide one-handed - just in case. You will not see me do that at a Match.

Edited by perttime

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I seen plenty of shooters chamber a round on an unloaded stage it's just muscle memory .  The sport is design to change up your shooting norm . And to help you focus .

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On 9/22/2019 at 12:52 PM, Hi-Power Jack said:

Who would walk around with an empty chamber ?

 

 

I know several, even WORSE they train chambered. I ask why don't they train how they carry? Oh ill remember to rack it when I need it. I laughed at them and said either train empty chamber or carry loaded but either way train how you carry.........

 

Alot of people scared of shooting themselves or their gun "going off" so they carry empty chamber, to me its stupid and would only do so if required by law. If i need to use my firearm, fractions of a second count let alone the second or so it takes to rack the gun...

 

 

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Gun on the table. Hammer down with mag inserted, laying flat on table, ejection port on X.  BOOM. Lol that would be an interesting WSB

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1 hour ago, nikdanja said:

Gun on the table. Hammer down with mag inserted, laying flat on table, ejection port on X.  BOOM. Lol that would be an interesting WSB

OK.... So where do the Revolver shooters put the gun?

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1 hour ago, perttime said:

OK.... So where do the Revolver shooters put the gun?

Cylinder open lol. 

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12 hours ago, nikdanja said:

Cylinder open lol. 

Strangely enough, I didn''t find a USPSA rule for what to do with revolvers when WSB has magazine inserted but empty chamber.

IPSC has:

8.1.1.2 Double/Selective Action: hammer fully down and cylinder closed. If self-loading pistols prepare "magazine well and chamber empty", revolvers prepare with an empty cylinder, otherwise revolvers prepare with a fully loaded cylinder.

 

But I meant: Where do you put the revolver? It doesn't have an ejection port.

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On 11/9/2019 at 3:55 AM, perttime said:

Strangely enough, I didn''t find a USPSA rule for what to do with revolvers when WSB has magazine inserted but empty chamber.

IPSC has:

8.1.1.2 Double/Selective Action: hammer fully down and cylinder closed. If self-loading pistols prepare "magazine well and chamber empty", revolvers prepare with an empty cylinder, otherwise revolvers prepare with a fully loaded cylinder.

 

But I meant: Where do you put the revolver? It doesn't have an ejection port.


Any time that you find yourself thinking “but what about a gun that can’t be in start position x because it doesn’t have x feature” you should probably just rewrite the WSB. 
 

For example, I’ve heard people suggest an “unloaded, slide or bolt locked back or cylinder open”, but that won’t work because some guns - especially PCCs - don’t have a functioning bolt hold open. 

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