How would you score this squib event...

[Jollymon32]

PCC shooter.  Makes ready.... BEEP.

Shooter pulls trigger, nothing happens.

Shooter cycles carbine and pockets what seems to be the ejected round (for future reference?).

RO says nothing, waiting on shooter (5.7.4). 

Shooter, curses, drops magazine and starts to clear the carbine.

RO issues the “If you are done...” command.  Once cleared, RO asks, “Why?” Shooter responds “Squib”.

 

RO never heard squib, timer did not pick up anything.

 

RO accompanies Shooter to safety area and verifies squib.

 

CRO and other RO enter the results in tablet.

 

What is the correct entry into the tablet? (14 paper, 2 steel)

Edited April 16, 2019 by Jollymon32
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[DKorn]

Per rule 9.10.3, zero time and zero score. The rulebook also says that this is a DNF for the stage, but I’m not sure if practiscore will let you enter a DNF for only one stage. 

[dapribek]

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable misses and penalties.

[DKorn]

2 minutes ago, dapribek said:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable misses and penalties.

 

5.7.7.1 only applies if the RO stops the shooter due to a suspected unsafe condition (such as a squib). In this case, the shooter decided themselves that they were finished by unloading and showing clear. 

 

Edit: Also, because in this case the RO heard nothing and didn’t stop the shooter, the shooter would NOT be entitled to a reshoot if it turned out that there was not a squib. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by DKorn

[Jollymon32]

So, the rules are obvious, the reason for the post is because of the specifics:

1) Did the Shooter “fire”?  Because if he did, then a DNF for the stage would not be applicable, you score it as shot

2) If he did “fire”, then what is the time to enter on tablet - shot timer did not pick up the squib.

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Jollymon32

[bret]

He did not fire a shot

 

 DNF 9.10.3

 

Score the stage and put in all Mike's and procedural's.

 

No reshoot.

[bret]

6 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

So, the rules are obvious, the reason for the post is because of the specifics:

1) Did the Shooter “fire”?  Because if he did, then a DNF for the stage would not be applicable, you score it as shot

2) If he did “fire”, then what is the time to enter on tablet - shot timer did not pick up the squib.

 

A squib is not a shot, timer doesn't have to pick it up.

[bret]

40 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

PCC shooter.  Makes ready.... BEEP.

Shooter pulls trigger, nothing happens.

Shooter cycles carbine and pockets what seems to be the ejected round (for future reference?).

RO says nothing, waiting on shooter (5.7.4). 

Shooter, curses, drops magazine and starts to clear the carbine.

RO issues the “If you are done...” command.  Once cleared, RO asks, “Why?” Shooter responds “Squib”.

 

RO never heard squib, timer did not pick up anything.

 

RO accompanies Shooter to safety area and verifies squib.

 

CRO and other RO enter the results in tablet.

 

What is the correct entry into the tablet? (14 paper, 2 steel)

DNF 9.10.3

 

0.00 time

 

30 Mike's. (If 2 shots per paper)

 

16 FTSA

 

 

[jcc7x7]

14 minutes ago, bret said:

DNF 9.10.3

 

0.00 time

 

30 Mike's. (If 2 shots per paper)

 

16 FTSA

 

 

Yep

This was just on my recertification test.

 

[ChuckS]

The OP case seems like the guy had too long ammo and the bullet caught the rifling and caused the event. The "squib" was really the bullet getting stuck and being pulled from the case (that the guy hid in his pocket). Zero time and score per the rule quoted by Bret.

 

(After seeing jcc7x7's post just now, I have to ask: are we trolling for answers for our RO test?)

[DKorn]

46 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

So, the rules are obvious, the reason for the post is because of the specifics:

1) Did the Shooter “fire”?  Because if he did, then a DNF for the stage would not be applicable, you score it as shot

2) If he did “fire”, then what is the time to enter on tablet - shot timer did not pick up the squib.

 

 

Check the glossary for the definition of a shot. Hint- this is the same reason that a detonation from a round hitting the ejector at unload and show clear isn’t a DQ for an AD. 

[bret]

52 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

The OP case seems like the guy had too long ammo and the bullet caught the rifling and caused the event. The "squib" was really the bullet getting stuck and being pulled from the case (that the guy hid in his pocket). Zero time and score per the rule quoted by Bret.

 

(After seeing jcc7x7's post just now, I have to ask: are we trolling for answers for our RO test?)

Is this a r.o. recertification question? 

 

 

[DKorn]

If this is a test question, this thread should probably be removed, unless discussing the test is specifically allowed by NROI. 

[euxx]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

Per rule 9.10.3, zero time and zero score. The rulebook also says that this is a DNF for the stage, but I’m not sure if practiscore will let you enter a DNF for only one stage. 

 

 

Though we recently had a case when results were deemed invalid at the end of the match due to invalid start position for PCC (8.2.2). Normally that would be a regular reshoot, but because reshoot wasn't possible, you'd need to record that and using 6.5.1 or even 9.7.7 doesn't seem appropriate. Maybe we need to add one more option for DNF/0.0 choices, just not sure of the wording.

 

Similarly for an "unrealistic score" with reshoot under 9.10.2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jollymon32]

No, this is not a RO Recertification question.

 

This happened at Area 6.  I was the timer RO and the one that went with the shooter to the safe area to establish a squib round.

 

The two remaining RO's attempted to record this as an "as shot" scenario deeming that the squib round was "shot" and thus "fired".  30 mikes, 16 FTSA's....... but Practiscore would not allow a save without a time.  So they recorded a fraction of a second as the time just to be able to save the record.

 

We later find out that the shooter has asked for a reshoot and was given one under the technicality that the time was incorrect.  RM stated that this should of been scored DNF, and not "as shot".

 

RM is pretty high up on the pecking order so who am I to say otherwise, but I would of thought an Edit to the score would of been more equitable for everyone......

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Jollymon32

[MikeBurgess]

18 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

No, this is not a RO Recertification question.

 

This happened at Area 6.  I was the timer RO and the one that went with the shooter to the safe area to establish a squib round.

 

The two remaining RO's attempted to record this as an "as shot" scenario deeming that the squib round was "shot" and thus "fired".  30 mikes, 16 FTSA's....... but Practiscore would not allow a save without a time.  So they recorded a fraction of a second as the time just to be able to save the record.

 

We later find out that the shooter has asked for a reshoot and was given one under the technicality that the time was incorrect.  RM stated that this should of been scored DNF not "as shot".

 

RM is pretty high up on the pecking order so who am I to say otherwise, but I would of thought an Edit to the score would of been more equitable for everyone......

 

 

This is the reason that anytime something out of the ordinary happens on a stage and you are not 100% sure what to do about it, just call the RM and let them handle it, its why they are there. 

 

in Practiscore you can back out of a score sheet it will warn you there is no time and ask if yo want to return or save and exit just choose save and exit. then you can fix it later.

 

 

[broadside72]

3 hours ago, bret said:

DNF 9.10.3

 

0.00 time

 

30 Mike's. (If 2 shots per paper)

 

16 FTSA

 

 

 

3 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Yep

This was just on my recertification test.

 

 

Where do you get the 30M+procedurals? 
Just enter the DNF/9.10.3 and it will give zero score, zero time. 

[ChuckS]

When the wheels fall off, always record the time and score. always! It may be needed.

[Batmo]

Question ?  

If you were penalized 30 Mikes and 16 FTSA  would that not be a negative score for the stage ?

 

9.5.6  "The minimum score for a course of fire or string will be zero".  Should apply....or am I missing something.

[bret]

5 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

 

Where do you get the 30M+procedurals? 
Just enter the DNF/9.10.3 and it will give zero score, zero time. 

14 paper targets 2 steel

 

28 Mike's on paper (assuming 2 hits per)

 

2 Mike's on Steel

 

16 FTSA because he never engaged any of the targets.

 

Even when they Zero a stage it has to be scored properly. 

 

Where in the rule book does it say not to score a stage properly because they had a malfunction that prevented them from shooting or finishing a stage?

[broadside72]

7 minutes ago, bret said:

14 paper targets 2 steel

 

28 Mike's on paper (assuming 2 hits per)

 

2 Mike's on Steel

 

16 FTSA because he never engaged any of the targets.

 

Even when they Zero a stage it has to be scored properly. 

 

Where in the rule book does it say not to score a stage properly because they had a malfunction that prevented them from shooting or finishing a stage?

 

I don't think Practiscore lets you enter anything else when you use the DNF option. It's already a zero/zero situation per a specific rule in the book. It's not like the squib happened after there was a score or time to record (middle of a COF) in which you score as shot.

[NickBlasta]

16 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

I don't think Practiscore lets you enter anything else when you use the DNF option. It's already a zero/zero situation per a specific rule in the book. It's not like the squib happened after there was a score or time to record (middle of a COF) in which you score as shot.

 

It also won't let you record a zero time (it has to be at least 00.01, ie you'd be making one up) so DNF is the only option.

[euxx]

26 minutes ago, bret said:

Even when they Zero a stage it has to be scored properly. 

 

The USPSA rule book says zero scores. It doesn't say all misses and penalties. Why would you do that if competitor hasn't fired a shot?

 

Also, take 2.2.1.5 - you can record time and score targets as shot, then select DNF with 2.2.1.5 in PractiScore. It will give a correct results and should allow to revert to original scores if needed.

[DKorn]

49 minutes ago, Batmo said:

Question ?  

If you were penalized 30 Mikes and 16 FTSA  would that not be a negative score for the stage ?

 

9.5.6  "The minimum score for a course of fire or string will be zero".  Should apply....or am I missing something.

 

Let’s say they had fired one shot before they have a malfunction. They’ll get the appropriate mikes and FTSAs, which would give them a theoretically negative score, but their actual hit factor will be zero because the minimum score is zero. 

[Batmo]

Question ?  

If you were penalized 30 Mikes and 16 FTSA  would that not be a negative score for the stage ?

 

9.5.6  "The minimum score for a course of fire or string will be zero".  Should apply....or am I missing something.

28 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Let’s say they had fired one shot before they have a malfunction. They’ll get the appropriate mikes and FTSAs, which would give them a theoretically negative score, but their actual hit factor will be zero because the minimum score is zero. 

 

Thanks....that is kind of what I thought.  But sometimes my simple mind needs help.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Batmo