USPSA MD / builders question

[Maximis228]

Just now, ATLDave said:

And do you have a grid on the ground at the range?  Are guys using lasers to measure things offs?  Tape measures everywhere as though they were setting up a classifier?

 

Or are they guys who have shot matches and built stages and know how to get it to work? 

 

A yard (Or the average step) makes it pretty easy for anyone to understand. But we do have many regulars that are running the set up for these indoor matches. They do a great job of guiding the new guys on where to help. It also helps that we only build 2 stages at a time. Shoot stage 1... switch bays... shoot stage 2... Flop to new stage... shoot stage 3... switch bays... shoot stage 4.... Clean up. 2 squads of 16-18 shooters for a twice a month weeknight match. Then we run 6 stages on the last Saturday of the month.

[ATLDave]

Of course.  That's a great way to do it.  My comments are in response to the notion that the volunteer-based approach is a bad one and we should have more "professionally" set-up matches where some workers do all the work, and the shooters are just consumers.  I was trying (perhaps poorly) to explain some of the reasons that doesn't work.  One of the big ones is that you can't just get landscapers and expect them to get it right - not within the time constraints most matches have.  

 

So you'd have to pay the rates of people who are doing the setup.  I MD'ed a weekly indoor match for 4 years (taking a break - burnout is definitely a thing!).  I did it for free, because I love the sport and the club.  If you take away that volunteerism and wanted to pay me to do it, I'd charge something approaching what I charge in my professional life.  Let's just say that the match fees would have had to go up a lot to cover my bill.  It's just not a workable model in most circumstances.  This sport simply has to have a significant amount of volunteerism to continue.  That's my ultimate point.  

[CHA-LEE]

Creating stage diagrams to exacting detail in Google Sketchup then trying to deploy that during setup can waste a metric s#!t ton of time. Effective stage design vs effort in setting it up really comes down to what the extent of the stage designers "Intent" is. If the stage designers "Intent" is to force everyone to navigate the stage in a specific path or sequence then it almost always leads to holes in the stage that you can drive a Mac Truck through because they are blind to alternate strategies that can be used. If the stage designers "Intent" is to task the competitors with generalized shooting/movement challenges while staying within the legal bounds of the rule book then it allows them to setup and debug the stage much faster and it also eliminates the need to make the stage to be setup EXACTLY like how the drawing shows. 

 

I have learned over the years that I need to completely abandon the idea that stage design should have a predetermined "Intent" of what the optimal stage plan should be when designing it or setting it up. I have specific shooting/moving goals I want to achieve with the stage design, but I could honestly care less about what the best stage plan will be during the setup process. I only care about deploying the shooting/moving goals then ensure that its setup in a safe and legal manner. This allows me to debug the stage quickly by looking at it from ALL perspectives regardless to how competitive or stupid a potential stage plan may be. The number one issue I see when novice stage designers are trying to debug their stages is their assumption that a shooter won't do something simply because it wouldn't be the best plan to do it. I have lost count of how many times I have pointed out glaring stage setup issues like shoot throughs, targets placed just beyond the 180 in common shooting positions, or poor prop positioning that allows whole sections to be avoided and the response is "Nobody is going to do that.....". Then people do it during the match and it results in yet another mid match issue to deal with. 

 

Effective stage design that generates fun, challenging and safe stages doesn't have to be the complex task most people make it out to be. Most of the issues and extra effort associated with stage design is 100% due to the thought process and mindset used while tackling the task. If you make it out to be a huge challenge to setup stages, then guess what, its going to be a huge challenge.

[Maximis228]

Im not against raising fees. I dont see an issue with Locals going up to $40-$60, $200 for sectionals, $300+ for area matches and $500 for nationals.

 

Get local match staff paid, Make it worth while for majors. Pay staff... have paid resetters... more demo space for sponsors... All that jazz. Make it an event. Not just a big local like most do. But thats a whole different convo as well. LOLOL

[CHA-LEE]

8 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Of course.  That's a great way to do it.  My comments are in response to the notion that the volunteer-based approach is a bad one and we should have more "professionally" set-up matches where some workers do all the work, and the shooters are just consumers.  I was trying (perhaps poorly) to explain some of the reasons that doesn't work.  One of the big ones is that you can't just get landscapers and expect them to get it right - not within the time constraints most matches have.  

 

So you'd have to pay the rates of people who are doing the setup.  I MD'ed a weekly indoor match for 4 years (taking a break - burnout is definitely a thing!).  I did it for free, because I love the sport and the club.  If you take away that volunteerism and wanted to pay me to do it, I'd charge something approaching what I charge in my professional life.  Let's just say that the match fees would have had to go up a lot to cover my bill.  It's just not a workable model in most circumstances.  This sport simply has to have a significant amount of volunteerism to continue.  That's my ultimate point.  

 

+1 Billion......... Its easy for people to suggest hiring setup staff to get all of the hard work done so people can shoot & scoot until they realize that the entry fee would have to be $150 each for a club match to pay skilled labor to do all of the "work" for them.

[CHA-LEE]

I also want to point out that the vast majority of local club match shooters are CHEAP. Look at all of the butt hurt that ensues when someone doesn't get their brass picked up after a stage run. Or can't locate the loaded round racked out after the unload & show clear. If people show that level of butt hurt over letting $5 worth of brass not getting recovered there is NO WAY they will be able to justify a 5x - 10x increase in the match fee simply because they don't want to roll up their sleeves and help setting up the match.

 

Sure there is a very small subset of competitors who would willingly pay a significantly higher match fee to shoot & scoot. But this group of shooters is the minority by a wide margin. The average club match competitor would not find the value in doubling or tripling the entry fee just to avoid swinging a hammer during setup.

[ATLDave]

And it's all well and good for the more fortunate (and/or profligate) among us to say, "hey, $60 is no big deal to me, I drink that in wine three times a week; pay the plebes, and let us senatorial class shooters just shoot."  But most shooters won't have that reaction.  So instead of the extra cost of the "hired help" being spread among 100 shooters, it's only spread among 50.  And instead of the fee going to $60, it has to go to $120.  For a 6-stage club match with a field of 50.  Not many people will be interested in that, so next month the field will be 20 guys and the fee will be $250.  The parking will be ample, but all the cars and trucks will be very nice.  For a month or two, and then the match will be dead.

 

Not a viable model in most places.  Just because some of us aren't very price sensitive doesn't mean that a good portion of the shooting population is.  

 

If you're really price insensitive and hate setting up, you could just bring your own valet with you.  He can do your setup and teardown duties and pick brass throughout the match for you.  Carry your bag between stages, too!  Like a golf caddy.

[elguapo]

19 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Of course.  That's a great way to do it.  My comments are in response to the notion that the volunteer-based approach is a bad one and we should have more "professionally" set-up matches where some workers do all the work, and the shooters are just consumers.  I was trying (perhaps poorly) to explain some of the reasons that doesn't work.  One of the big ones is that you can't just get landscapers and expect them to get it right - not within the time constraints most matches have.  

 

So you'd have to pay the rates of people who are doing the setup.  I MD'ed a weekly indoor match for 4 years (taking a break - burnout is definitely a thing!).  I did it for free, because I love the sport and the club.  If you take away that volunteerism and wanted to pay me to do it, I'd charge something approaching what I charge in my professional life.  Let's just say that the match fees would have had to go up a lot to cover my bill.  It's just not a workable model in most circumstances.  This sport simply has to have a significant amount of volunteerism to continue.  That's my ultimate point.  

 

First of all, no one here and I mean NO ONE has said that a volunteer-based setup crew is bad.  That's a strawman.

 

Some people have said that they prefer to not deal with it and pay for the convenience.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Now, you have a million reasons why paying for setup crews will never work and yet in this very same thread someone posted that they go to that very sort of match at the OK Corral in Oklahoma and pay $30 to shoot.  They even state that the setup is done by range personnel, who are presumably paid a living wage and are not lettuce-picking illegals working for slave wages.

 

Who should I believe?  They guy who's been to affordable matches that don't require setup volunteers?  Or the guy who thinks it can't be done based on his estimate of his own personal labor rate?

 

Oh wait, here's another one: https://practiscore.com/dawg-valley-uspsa-2019-04-14/register

Quote

Monthly USPSA Match
-- 5-6 stages
-- Registration starts at 9:15 AM
-- Mandatory new shooters meeting at 9:30 AM
-- Shooting starts at 10:00am
-- No setup or tear-down! Just come to shoot!

Price: $20

 

 

I wonder how they do it?

Edited April 10, 2019 by elguapo

[ATLDave]

1 minute ago, CHA-LEE said:

The average club match competitor would not find the value in doubling or tripling the entry fee just to avoid swinging a hammer during setup.

 

About 99% of the same guys who don't want to swing a hammer wouldn't want to pay, either.  They're just jagoffs.

[Maximis228]

Peoples lack of funds are literally not mine or anyone else's issue. Cannot afford it... dont go... or go set up something else yourself. I dont get upset at people who race cars as a hobby. I sure cant afford to do that. You dont see me going on WRX Racing forums complaining about why entry fees cost so much. 

 

Golf is just as expensive as shooting yet seems to have no problem charging high fees to broke plebs all over the world.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Maximis228

[elguapo]

16 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 The average club match competitor would not find the value in doubling or tripling the entry fee just to avoid swinging a hammer during setup.

 

We already have two examples where match fees are not double or triple to avoid swinging a hammer.  Where are these matches that cost $40 to $90 to enter?

 

More made-up reasons.

[CHA-LEE]

14 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

First of all, no one here and I mean NO ONE has said that a volunteer-based setup crew is bad.  That's a strawman.

 

Some people have said that they prefer to not deal with it and pay for the convenience.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Now, you have a million reasons why paying for setup crews will never work and yet in this very same thread someone posted that they go to that very sort of match at the OK Corral in Oklahoma and pay $30 to shoot.  They even state that the setup is done by range personnel, who are presumably paid a living wage and are not lettuce-picking illegals working for slave wages.

 

Who should I believe?  They guy who's been to affordable matches that don't require setup volunteers?  Or the guy who thinks it can't be done based on his estimate of his own personal labor rate?

 

Oh wait, here's another one: https://practiscore.com/dawg-valley-uspsa-2019-04-14/register

 

I wonder how they do it?

 

Your example is mute without all of the details. That match could be run by an enthusiastic MD/Crew that is willing to go above and beyond to set everything up by themselves. That can obviously "Work", but will also burn those people out once they realize that its not worth the extra effort to go out of their way to setup matches for lazy asses.

[elguapo]

4 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Your example is mute without all of the details. That match could be run by an enthusiastic MD/Crew that is willing to go above and beyond to set everything up by themselves. That can obviously "Work", but will also burn those people out once they realize that its not worth the extra effort to go out of their way to setup matches for lazy asses.

LOL, right.  

 

You guys literally make up all these reasons why it won't work and then double down when shown examples of it working.

 

I'm with Maximis on this.

[CrashDodson]

30 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

First of all, no one here and I mean NO ONE has said that a volunteer-based setup crew is bad.  That's a strawman.

 

Some people have said that they prefer to not deal with it and pay for the convenience.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Now, you have a million reasons why paying for setup crews will never work and yet in this very same thread someone posted that they go to that very sort of match at the OK Corral in Oklahoma and pay $30 to shoot.  They even state that the setup is done by range personnel, who are presumably paid a living wage and are not lettuce-picking illegals working for slave wages.

 

Who should I believe?  They guy who's been to affordable matches that don't require setup volunteers?  Or the guy who thinks it can't be done based on his estimate of his own personal labor rate?

 

Oh wait, here's another one: https://practiscore.com/dawg-valley-uspsa-2019-04-14/register

 

I wonder how they do it?

I have a buddy that lives a few hours away.  He runs a 3 gun match and recently started up USPSA.  The range is on a private ranch and this guy is coming up on retirement from the military and has some free time.  They run their match I guess you could say for profit since they are not associated with a public gun range.  He sets up his matches himself and doesn't require setup or tear down.  I assume this dawg valley is similar, but I emailed them to ask for clarification.  

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, elguapo said:

LOL, right.  

 

You guys literally make up all these reasons why it won't work and then double down when shown examples of it working.

 

I'm with Maximis on this.

 

I'm with charlie, especially since I know he actually runs matches and builds stages on a routine basis. You haven't shown an example of it working over the long term. Personally, I would skip local matches if they cost $40-60, but I suppose I'm fine with charging that for people that don't setup so that setup folks shoot for free.

 

Charlie and I both have examples of low match fees and volunteer setup working GREAT. We set up in 60 mins, different stage designer for each stage, 50% or more of the 70 shooters are pitching in to help, which is enough help that no one cares that much about the folks that don't or can't help, or may have traveled further and don't have time. Pretty much everyone helps with teardown on the stage they ended on, which takes a full squad 10-15 mins maximum for a field stage, and half that or less for a classifier.

 

We have a couple head honchos, but another 3-5 people at least that can take over as MD for a day, or run registration and results, another 5-8 that are always ready to design and build an interesting and legal field stage, and basically rotate jobs around so that no one gets burned out over the long haul.

 

Maybe a professional setup crew and higher match fees would actually work somewhere, but since it's obvious there are cheapier and easier solutions that are PROVEN to work over the long term, it seems like a non-optimal solution to me.

[Jollymon32]

At OK Corral, there is a MD and volunteers who design and tweak the finished stages.  The build is mostly done by Range staff.  There is still “volunteerism”, just not much, if any, in the build and tear down.  108 shooters on the 9 stages with a waitlist - it is a quality match with superb stages, rivaling an L2.  All for $30.

 

[CrashDodson]

1 minute ago, Jollymon32 said:

At OK Corral, there is a MD and volunteers who design and tweak the finished stages.  The build is mostly done by Range staff.  There is still “volunteerism”, just not much, if any, in the build and tear down.  108 shooters on the 9 stages with a waitlist - it is a quality match with superb stages, rivaling an L2.  All for $30.

 

Thats pretty cool.  Our range could care less if we have a match. They would actually prefer we dont because that would give more bay time to the members who come to shoot their silhouette at 3 yards.  Then there are us paying range members who would not go to the range if it wasn't for the matches.  

[zzt]

I think a lot of this depends on where you shoot.  I routinely shoot sanctioned matches at five clubs within 90 minutes of me.  Even when I go two hours early to help, mostly everything is already set up and they are just tweaking the stages.  I will say these clubs have lots of mechanical gear to move  walls, steel, etc. to and from the bays so you don't have to do it by hand.  They also have experienced MDs, so everything goes like clockwork.  At the end of the match almost everyone helps tear down and stow.  Five or six minutes after the last squad shoots in a bay, it is cleared.

 

I was MD for three years at my home club.  I ran all the non-bullseye pistol matches.  We only had room for three stages, so it wasn'yta lot of work.  For the action matches I'd staple all the targets to the sticks the day before, and draw stage designs.  That way if some showed up earlier than the 8 AM setup time, they knew what to do.  It happened often.  Briefing was at 9 AM and hammer down at 9:15.  We were always on time.  Steel, pin and 2x4 matches were set up the morning of the shoot.  Generally, I had more help than I needed.  There was a cadre of ROs who knew what to do, plus a bunch of shooters who wanted to help.

[ATLDave]

44 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

At OK Corral, there is a MD and volunteers who design and tweak the finished stages.  The build is mostly done by Range staff. 

 

It is wonderful if you have a club and match that is seriously sponsored by/supported by the range.  Many, many, many USPSA clubs do not have that.  The range tolerates the club/match, but are certainly not going to lift a finger to staff it.  The (indoor weekly) match that I ran had to pay rent to the range for the match.  It wasn't in any way put on by the range. 

 

One of the better and longer-standing monthly matches in my area has been shut down multiple times (for months at a time) by the range because the BOC's running the range think that shooting steel is dangerous.  The chances that those same old Fudd's are going to want to pay one cent for some staff member to work the match that they're perpetually trying to kill is ZERO.

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by ATLDave

[ATLDave]

1 hour ago, Maximis228 said:

Golf is just as expensive as shooting yet seems to have no problem charging high fees to broke plebs all over the world.

As a golfer, this makes me laugh.  First of all, golf has a very mixed relationship with the plebians.  Many courses are specifically intended to not allow them.  There are all kinds of barriers that are intended to make "those people" not feel welcome.  

 

Second, golf is struggling as a business right now.  Big time.  The last 10 years have not been kind to that industry.  Using them as a model in the modern world is pretty laughable.

 

Third, even golf expects a fair amount of volunteerism.  Players are expected to rake bunkers, replace divots, fix ball marks on the green, etc.  The only exceptions are for those who are additionally and separately paying a caddie  - see my earlier comments about paying some dude to do your setup duties and carry your ammo between bays.  A caddie will typically cost you $100 or $150 all in with tip.  You might be able to pay a servant that and get them to caddie for you during your USPSA match.  But no matter how much you pay them, your caddie won't be responsible for keeping your score and calling the rules - unlike USPSA where a fraction of the shooters serve as RO's, in golf you have to call your own penalties on yourself.  

 

And that's just for recreational golf.  For serious amateur competitive golf and even a lot of pro golf, the game is heavily dependent on volunteers who aren't even playing.  They love the game so much they'll go officiate multi-day tournaments just as a service to the sport and to see players compete.  

 

Finally, if you look at the kind of golf that the plebians most frequently engage in - banging balls at the range or playing at their local municipal courses - the costs are very similar to typical match fees.  Golf balls are more expensive than individual rounds of ammo, but you shouldn't be losing very many of them in the berm during a round of golf!  

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by ATLDave

[Maximis228]

We get it, you dont want solutions, you want to vent about how others ideas blow.

 

Carry on sir.

[ATLDave]

Yeah, we're all just masochists here.  You got our number.  

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

Peoples lack of funds are literally not mine or anyone else's issue. 

 

Keeping a reasonable level of local participation in the sport affordable for my friends who have tighter budgets, and doing a bit of extra work for those who are not able to work as hard as they would like to is my issue.

 

[ima45dv8]

Designing quality stages, and building quality stages, are two distinctly different skill sets. 

 

========

One thing I think more matches could do is set up a 'club' and sell memberships. Offer a branded polo shirt with the paid annual dues. Have an annual cookout, party, whatever. Let them belong.

 

This is not to be confused with a membership at the range. This a USPSA club, if you will. 

 

Doing this raises money for the club to buy supplies, props, etc, but most importantly instills a sense of ownership of the matches. You can hold 'club' meetings maybe once a month after a match, get input and feedback, and then introduce the calendar. The calendar where people can commit to help with setup upcoming matches. Depending on the number of volunteers, the number of matches they need to commit to will vary, but it plants the right seed. "Oh, honey, I have to be there on that day to help with setup. It's my turn."

 

 

 

[Jollymon32]

Profit is a strong motivator.  "Greed is good'" - It fills a need without anyone forcing anyone to fill that need.

 

OK Corral has attempted in many ways to profit off the 100+ shooters that visit each USPSA match, action steel match, 2 gun match, and Steel Challenge match , each month  - it has sold and delivered box lunches to the range, it has a buffet lunch that can be purchased, it has cabins that can be rented, it sells range memberships, rents bays, has an RV park, has a bar, provides training classes, hosts top instructors, sells ammo, clothing, etc.

 

It is hosting Area 6 starting tomorrow.  

 

Whether or not this is all profitable, I can only surmise, but they do attempt to capture as much side business as possible from the thousands of individual visitors that come to the range because of their action park.  

 

It still takes a substantial amount of volunteers: MD (2 of these), check in personnel (3 of these, if not 4), stage reviewers (probably 2), and of course the embedded RO's that are shooting the match.  There is, however, no setup or teardown.  This makes for a very professional and uniform presentation of the stages and gives the match the aura of a L2 and contributes to its immediate sell out.

 

There are rumblings that they may increase the price (as they should, anything that sells out that fast points to a strong misbalance between supply and demand) and I believe most shooters would stomach a $5 increase if they continue to provide the same quality product.