USPSA MD / builders question

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

 

How many times did you try doing that?  Learning to build stages that are rule-compliant and fun/interesting takes reps.  You wouldn't expect someone to shoot like a GM the first time they come to a match, no matter how good the coaching was nor how enthusiastic and smart they are.  It takes time to become a decent stage-builder, to make the mistakes that gamers then capitalize on and learn from that.  

 

If you asked people to do this for 2-3 matches, then each of those people has built 2 or 3 stages (unless you've got some old hands around who used to MD).  You have to anticipate some growing pains as people learn to do any challenging task.  Effective delegation requires enough patience to get through those pains and eventually see the benefits.  

 

Once you get a few people really competent at this stuff, the system becomes much more self-sustaining.  I would encourage you to stick with this approach, even if you have a few matches with late starts, a tossed stage, etc.  Let the people willing to help learn.  Don't quit on it just because they weren't perfect from the get-go.

Truth

 

It is amazing to me when I look back at some of the stages I did the first few years in the game, they were horrible, it is absolutely a learned skill.

 

[ATLDave]

5 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Great stages do not have to be big field courses, often the most talked about stages at our matches are from one of our tiny bays and was all of 3 walls and some fault lines and some interesting target placements.

Agreed.  I particularly think the medium course is criminally under-rated/used in USPSA.  You can do a lot of cool stuff in a 16 or 20 round stage, and the result of some aspect you're emphasizing doesn't get watered down by all the other stage points.

 

Consider a stage with an activator sequence of two mini-poppers, a swinger, and a clamshell.  Imagine the optimal run on that lets a competitor shoot both steel, take the closer clamshell immediately, then take the swinger in one pass.  If you miss a shot, then the sequence is thrown off, and you have to eat a whole cycle of the swinger.  Put that array into an 18 round course, and how people shoot it will really separate the great shooters from the guys just scuffling around.  Bury it in a 32 rounder, and there's the potential for people to "make it up" elsewhere in the stage to some extent, and the impact of that sequence gets pretty diluted.  

Edited April 8, 2019 by ATLDave

[IHAVEGAS]

47 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

Double post

Edited April 8, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[IHAVEGAS]

43 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

 

 

This is the whole you attract more bees with honey thing.

How you ask for help has a huge affect on how much help you get.

Even if your stressed and burned out, you need to ask in the way that is most likely to get you the help you want.

 

 

 

If you have to kiss people's butts in order to get help it just ain't worth it. Let the match die and find something else fun to do with a better group of people.

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you have to kiss people's butts in order to get help it just ain't worth it. Let the match die and find something else fun to do with a better group of people.

Its not about "kissing Butts" its about asking nicely VS making a demand, your goal is the same but one has better success rate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maximis228]

I have offered discounts. I then went to free slots. Then I offered to pay some cash. I offered early sign ups (As ours sells out very fast). Ive offered sectional slots for nationals.

 

The only thing that got people motivated was the threat of the MD quitting and killing the club. Maybe if we were the only club in the area we could get some more help, But we have 8 other clubs within 1.5 hours of ours. Each and every single one of those clubs have the same problem.

 

This isn't a small club or a big club issue. Its just an issue period with running USPSA how most clubs do it. Our club runs 33 matches a year (Indoor). Most run 7-10 due to weather.

 

The more I run MD at my club, the more I want to make it a for profit match and pay out the help and pay myself as well. Might as well get some coin for all the bulls#!t we deal with on a constant basis. At least the drive over will suck a little less.

[IHAVEGAS]

14 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Its not about "kissing Butts" its about asking nicely VS making a demand, your goal is the same but one has better success rate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When the need is obvious and you are talking to the people who are there to enjoy the fruits of the labor, any request that is pg rated I would consider to be butt kissing.

 

[MikeBurgess]

You would be surprised how "not obvious" a MD needing help can be. Most shooters will just see the regular guys helping set up and think everything is normal and normal is fine. 

[IHAVEGAS]

4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

You would be surprised how "not obvious" a MD needing help can be. Most shooters will just see the regular guys helping set up and think everything is normal and normal is fine. 

Could be a local thing. The clubs I shoot at all make it a point of thanking those who help set up  at the shooters meeting and stating what people need to do to help tear down.

Hellen Keller could not hide from knowing about the work.

[regor]

I recently joined the club in my section that is closest to me and helped set up for the last match. I think we had 8-10 people help setting up 6 stages including the MD. We had a good system, one guy from the start was in charge of making the targets for each stage and then grouping them together with a copy of the stage diagram. 3-4 people hauled the materials to the bays, 3-4 more followed and roughed out the stage, then once everything was roughed out in a bay the MD came through and tweaked things with 1-2 helpers to move props while everyone else continued roughing. We did a final pass looking for potential traps/shoot throughs/other issues, then went through and put in stakes and paint marks.

 

That made things very efficient because there was very little standing around; the closer to an assembly line the process can be the better. If there are more than 4 people working in a given bay at any time then you are probably not being as efficient as possible., likewise if you have people doing redundant tasks (like two people covering up unwanted wall ports rather than one).  

 

In addition to comping the match fee for people who set up, I think bringing in coffee/doughnuts/pizza for the setup crew could also go a long way to getting people to help out. Could you also green light giving people discounts on their annual dues for club membership (or if your club has a work hours requirement letting match setup hours count for that)? 

[RJH]

I would listen to Mike B, i think he has it figured out

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

Agreed.  I particularly think the medium course is criminally under-rated/used in USPSA.  You can do a lot of cool stuff in a 16 or 20 round stage, and the result of some aspect you're emphasizing doesn't get watered down by all the other stage points.

 

<snipped a good explanation of why>

 

Agreed!

 

If you have an activator, put it in a sequence that gives people the chance to decide <how many> targets they can squeeze between steel and the moving target.

 

Press a couple targets into service that you can take backing out of that array, or on the move to a second position, which has a few more targets.

 

Total rounds? 12-18.

 

Doesn’t bottleneck your match like a 32rnder with lots of steel and movers does. One reload gets even Production through the stage. It’s similarly quick to set up: a wall or a couple of barrels at either end of the shooting area, and 6-8 targets.

 

Savvy competitors will get into the challenge posed by these fast stages. There’s no room for error in your execution if you want to win it. Simple. But not easy.

 

Lowers the round count on 2 of your stages and INcreases the difficulty... while still leaving a safe (flatfooted) option for novices to stroll through easily.

 

Stop letting your stage designers make everything 26+ rounds with a maze of walls and fault lines.  

[CrashDodson]

3 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Could be a local thing. The clubs I shoot at all make it a point of thanking those who help set up  at the shooters meeting and stating what people need to do to help tear down.

Hellen Keller could not hide from knowing about the work.

I make a point to thank everyone.  Last year I bought all of my regulars club jerseys a few months before I let everyone else buy a club jersey.  That went over well but help has slowly fallen off.  Match before last we setup the entire thing with only 3 people.  The area I live is the center of oil production for the united states.  If you are willing and able anyone here can make 100k+, every business has a constant help wanted.  The likelihood of finding people I could pay to setup is zero...I sure have thought about it though.

There is another range in the area.  A private owned range by a friend of mine.  I've considered just moving the match to that range and using a more permanent type setup.  He said he has shot matches in vegas where the walls are up permanently.  I am not sure how that works and how you keep that fun.  I would lose some of the die hard fans of our current range but that could be an acceptable loss.    

[IHAVEGAS]

7 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Total rounds? 12-18.

 

 

Cover garments optional.

[RJH]

33 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

I make a point to thank everyone.  Last year I bought all of my regulars club jerseys a few months before I let everyone else buy a club jersey.  That went over well but help has slowly fallen off.  Match before last we setup the entire thing with only 3 people.  The area I live is the center of oil production for the united states.  If you are willing and able anyone here can make 100k+, every business has a constant help wanted.  The likelihood of finding people I could pay to setup is zero...I sure have thought about it though.

There is another range in the area.  A private owned range by a friend of mine.  I've considered just moving the match to that range and using a more permanent type setup.  He said he has shot matches in vegas where the walls are up permanently.  I am not sure how that works and how you keep that fun.  I would lose some of the die hard fans of our current range but that could be an acceptable loss.    

 

A private range is good if you can get it.  Permanent walls are actually not great, but the ability to set up over time is.  And you can leave things in bays and with a few shifts a new stage is born

[RJH]

32 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Cover garments optional.

 

 

At my local club and one of my very favorites to shoot, we have quite a few 20-22 round stages and 26-28 is a big one. 

[MemphisMechanic]

28 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Cover garments optional.

 

The best part about a truly good, interesting 17-round stage is the complaining you get from guys who equate round count with a stage’s difficulty and quality.

 

I personally relish that part.

 

Take a great stage, realize there’s only 21 shots in it... and keep adding targets til you hit 30 rounds?

 

Congratulations, you just upped the hit factor enough to take the challenge out of shooting really accurately, while nailing your movement with sufficient precision to have a competitive stage time.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

At my local club and one of my very favorites to shoot, we have quite a few 20-22 round stages and 26-28 is a big one. 

 

A Whopper costs less than a superbly cooked filet mignon, and it’s bigger.

 

Let him enjoy his fast food simplicity.

[CHA-LEE]

Rule 1 - This is a volunteer sport that can only happen with the dedicated efforts from many attending. At the club match level there really is no such thing as separate groups such as "match staff" and "competitors". If you want to shoot a local club match be prepared to roll up your sleeves and help make it happen. There is no place for 100% consumer shooters in a sport that only functions properly with volunteers. Basically put, not pitching in to help make it happen shouldn't tolerated. 

 

Rule 2 - Putting in extra effort to promote Consumerism is a losing battle. There is no way I am going to setup stages the day before just to help offset zero help the morning of the match. If you set the expectation that "Someone Else" is going to setup the bulk of the match the day before magically without any help, then the competitors are absolutely going to take advantage of that. 

 

Rule 3 - Surround yourself with a core group of club/board members that are dedicated to making matches happen. Also reward the board members appropriately for efforts. For example, for the club I am president of we pay for each board members annual range membership renewal fees, RO/CRO training, Trauma Training, and provide them unlimited access to the club equipment for training or practice. This is their "Payment" for being responsible for making the match happen. 

 

Rule 4 - Delegate the workload as needed and trust that your board members can execute their functions properly. Sure there will always be things that get messed up or have to be fixed. But it needs to be a trial & error learning process for the board member so they learn from their mistakes. It can't be a situation where you are in charge of everything. This also means that you need to hold your board members accountable for the quality of their work. Do it right, learn from your mistakes, or don't sign up to be on the board.

 

Rule 5 -  Know what your customer base expects or wants from a match product perspective. You may want to setup "Level 2/3" stages with a crap ton of walls and 100 yards of fault line or complex moving targets to make the stages more interesting. But the average helper looks at those stages realistically and see's that there are now 500 spikes that need to be hammered into the ground to secure it all in place. Make the stage design only as complex as needed to achieve the overall shooting/movement goal. I have lost count of how many "Level 2/3" shooting/movement challenge worthy stages I have setup over the years using only a few walls or barrels positioned in key locations. Every prop needed in a stage should have a valid justification for being used well before the start of the match. It shouldn't be a situation where you dump 6 walls on a stage and then try to conjure up a stage with them out of thin air.

[CHA-LEE]

All along the Colorado Front range we have 11 different USPSA clubs with matches happening on every single weekend day and several indoor matches happening during the week in the evenings. ALL OF THEM function in the manner of setting up the whole match right before the start of the match. They also require that everyone pitch in to help make the stage setup happen so that we can get started on time and get done with it on time as well. 100% Consumerism is not tolerated at all. You better be Setting Up, Tearing Down, ROing, Brassing or Resetting or you will get an appropriate amount of flack from your fellow shooters. 

[IHAVEGAS]

26 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

The best part about a truly good, interesting 17-round stage is the complaining you get from guys who equate round count with a stage’s difficulty and quality.

 

I personally relish that part.

 

Take a great stage, realize there’s only 21 shots in it... and keep adding targets til you hit 30 rounds?

 

Congratulations, you just upped the hit factor enough to take the challenge out of shooting really accurately, while nailing your movement with sufficient precision to have a competitive stage time.

 

You like what you like, nothing wrong with that. I think you are stretching things a bit if your assertion is that you need idpa/classifier type stages in order for skill to be obvious.

[CrashDodson]

31 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

A Whopper costs less than a superbly cooked filet mignon, and it’s bigger.

 

Let him enjoy his fast food simplicity.

For what ever reason it seems like shooters in our area equate poor quality local matches with round count.  "im not driving x miles to only shoot X rounds" is the type of stuff I hear said. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 minute ago, CrashDodson said:

For what ever reason it seems like shooters in our area equate poor quality local matches with round count.  "im not driving x miles to only shoot X rounds" is the type of stuff I hear said. 

A whole lot of us just love to shoot.

Lots.

[phoenixsomd]

I’ve heard of people pre-planning the stages and then having a list of what will be needed for each stage - at least covering the big stuff - and having it ready to go. It’s a bit more work ahead of time but could help save time with the actual building of the stages. 

Having individual stage and a consolidated build list us quite helpful. One small team pulls and delivers steel and other heavy equipment to each stage while each stage team pulls their unique items. Steel team then cycles back to grab target stands (steel as well)

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[CHA-LEE]

3 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

For what ever reason it seems like shooters in our area equate poor quality local matches with round count.  "im not driving x miles to only shoot X rounds" is the type of stuff I hear said. 

 

This is part of the "Know your product/customer" rule. If your local customer base puts more value on round count, then bump up the round count.