USPSA MD / builders question

[CrashDodson]

They sometimes find ways to shoot the stage eliminating some positions since its easier for them to take targets at distances most pistol shooters would not.  We only have a few pcc shooters and he would generally prefer it be changed instead of hearing people bitch about PCC all day.   

 

Its usually just moving a barrel or two or scooting a wall over a bit. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by CrashDodson

[MemphisMechanic]

The ability to delete positions with distance  is half the fun of running a dot and highcap on any gun - rifle or not. Nothing wrong with that! It’s what makes the sport great.

 

Just pointing out that stage designers should back up a bit and look at their stage to see how it changes, if they are going to skip the rear fault line.

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[MikeBurgess]

3 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

They sometimes find ways to shoot the stage eliminating some positions since its easier for them to take targets at distances most pistol shooters would not.

 

Isn't that the point ?

 

honestly when I shoot open I try to skip positions and take longer shots and generally not shoot the same plan as when I shoot revo. as long as the stage can not all be shot from one location or requires more than 8 from one spot (requires not would be best they are very different) then let them shoot it he way that best utilizes their equipment and skills.

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

@MikeBurgess  put your vest on, and shoot it the way we told you to.

 

[CHA-LEE]

9 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

They sometimes find ways to shoot the stage eliminating some positions since its easier for them to take targets at distances most pistol shooters would not.  We only have a few pcc shooters and he would generally prefer it be changed instead of hearing people bitch about PCC all day.   

 

Its usually just moving a barrel or two or scooting a wall over a bit. 

 

I agree with the others on this. If a different division allows someone to eliminate a position by taking harder shots then so be it. A pistol division shooter shouldn't care if a PCC division shooter can use a totally different strategy. This is no different than how a Production shooter would use a different strategy than an Open shooter.

[CrashDodson]

Perhaps my comment was taken differently than intended.  Our PCC shooters dont find it fun to just stand and shoot a bunch of targets at distance, they offer recommendations to change the stage to eliminate what could be for them just standing and shooting a stage like memphis stated with the removal of rear fault lines.  I would imagine everyone de-games their stages a bit before the start of a match.  As a shooter whats the fun in just standing in two positions and clearing a stage that was intended to be shot differently.  Might as well have just not built a stage at all.  YMMV  

[MikeBurgess]

28 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

Perhaps my comment was taken differently than intended.  Our PCC shooters dont find it fun to just stand and shoot a bunch of targets at distance, they offer recommendations to change the stage to eliminate what could be for them just standing and shooting a stage like memphis stated with the removal of rear fault lines.  I would imagine everyone de-games their stages a bit before the start of a match.  As a shooter whats the fun in just standing in two positions and clearing a stage that was intended to be shot differently.  Might as well have just not built a stage at all.  YMMV  

I understand what you are saying, making good challenging stages takes looking at how it could be run from several view points and having a different set of eyes look them over is always a good thing.

 

I add the following for the record as I think this thread is a good resource for the future.

 

Stages do not have intent stages are simply a set of challenges that are presented to be solved however the shooters choose within the rules. Thinking about stages with intent in mind is not good for you as a MD or a shooter.

 

As a MD thinking a stage has intent beyond initial setup will just drive you crazy or drive you to use way to many props to make shooters do what you want, the best you can hope for is to encourage them to do what you hoped and accept that they will do what they want. Attempting to force the shooter to do too much often ends up with run here shoot that stages, options are good, embrace the fact that giving options may result in shooters occasionally blowing up your stage idea.

 

As a shooter thinking about intent will drive you to run stages in a less than optimal way as the best plan may be totally contrary to what the designer obviously intended.

 

 

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I understand what you are saying, making good challenging stages takes looking at how it could be run from several view points and having a different set of eyes look them over is always a good thing.

 

I add the following for the record as I think this thread is a good resource for the future.

 

Stages do not have intent stages are simply a set of challenges that are presented to be solved however the shooters choose within the rules. Thinking about stages with intent in mind is not good for you as a MD or a shooter.

 

As a MD thinking a stage has intent beyond initial setup will just drive you crazy or drive you to use way to many props to make shooters do what you want, the best you can hope for is to encourage them to do what you hoped and accept that they will do what they want. Attempting to force the shooter to do too much often ends up with run here shoot that stages, options are good, embrace the fact that giving options may result in shooters occasionally blowing up your stage idea.

 

As a shooter thinking about intent will drive you to run stages in a less than optimal way as the best plan may be totally contrary to what the designer obviously intended.

 

 

 

This needs to be etched in stone somewhere

[CrashDodson]

Good stuff Mike

 

[IHAVEGAS]

13 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

 Our PCC shooters dont find it fun to just stand and shoot a bunch of targets at distance, they offer recommendations to change the stage to eliminate what could be for them just standing and shooting a stage

 

I'm old enough to remember when they said that PCC would fit into the sport and we wouldn't have to make the sport fit PCC 

 

[Sarge]

18 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I'm old enough to remember when they said that PCC would fit into the sport and we wouldn't have to make the sport fit PCC 

 

Me too!

[Jollymon32]

The monthly L1 match at OK Corral is up to 9 stages that sells out in 15 minutes.  Stages are setup and taken down by the staff at the range.  Competitors show up, shoot, and scoot.  Price is about $30.  

 

I get get the concept of volunteerism in the sport, but if I have to choose whether to setup and tear down, versus shoot and scoot, the choice is obvious.  I’ll even pay more to shoot and scoot.  

 

I believe that disruption in any enterprise is beneficial and it may be the case that we need to disrupt the concept of volunteerism in setup and tear down.  Consumerism is not a bad thing, we just need to figure out the value of this consumerism to the consumer and adapt the price of the match accordingly.  

 

 

[elguapo]

Stage intent belongs to IDPA and PRS.  Let them bitch about stupid stuff like that.  We should just shoot and applaud and learn from those who game the crap out of stages.

 

IDPA: 

Quote

run here shoot that stages

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by elguapo

[IHAVEGAS]

18 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

The monthly L1 match at OK Corral is up to 9 stages that sells out in 15 minutes.  Stages are setup and taken down by the staff at the range.  Competitors show up, shoot, and scoot.  Price is about $30.  

 

I get get the concept of volunteerism in the sport, but if I have to choose whether to setup and tear down, versus shoot and scoot, the choice is obvious.  I’ll even pay more to shoot and scoot.  

 

I believe that disruption in any enterprise is beneficial and it may be the case that we need to disrupt the concept of volunteerism in setup and tear down.  Consumerism is not a bad thing, we just need to figure out the value of this consumerism to the consumer and adapt the price of the match accordingly.  

 

 

 

Valid thoughts in my opinion.

Would work well for large matches with a reliable and significant attendance level. 

 

For matches where there is no paid range staff and where attendance is 40 on a good weather day and 20 when the weather is iffy I do not know how you escape the need for volunteers. Other thing is that many are shooting on a tight budget. 

[elguapo]

6 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

The monthly L1 match at OK Corral is up to 9 stages that sells out in 15 minutes.  Stages are setup and taken down by the staff at the range.  Competitors show up, shoot, and scoot.  Price is about $30.  

 

I get get the concept of volunteerism in the sport, but if I have to choose whether to setup and tear down, versus shoot and scoot, the choice is obvious.  I’ll even pay more to shoot and scoot.  

 

I believe that disruption in any enterprise is beneficial and it may be the case that we need to disrupt the concept of volunteerism in setup and tear down.  Consumerism is not a bad thing, we just need to figure out the value of this consumerism to the consumer and adapt the price of the match accordingly.  

 

 

 

A million times this.  One reason I enjoy sporting clays is that I show up, pay, shoot, and move on.  It costs more, but I get more value.

[elguapo]

13 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Other thing is that many are shooting on a tight budget. 

 

Shooting sports are not cheap.  On top of that match fees are typically the absolute smallest of the re-occurring expenses we have as shooters.

 

If someone can't afford a $5 or $10 increase in match fees, how are they affording things we go through in the thousands like primers, bullets, powder, and brass?

[IHAVEGAS]

1 minute ago, elguapo said:

 

Shooting sports are not cheap.  On top of that match fees are typically the absolute smallest of the re-occurring expenses we have as shooters.

 

If someone can't afford a $5 or $10 increase in match fees, how are they affording things we go through in the thousands like primers, bullets, powder, and brass?

 

Some of the folks I shoot with are picking up brass and selling what they do not need, casting their bullets and finding the best deals they can otherwise. Many who love to shoot have to live on a tight budget and a portion of those folks are retirees who have done a lot for the sport and their clubs over the years.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

The monthly L1 match at OK Corral is up to 9 stages that sells out in 15 minutes.  Stages are setup and taken down by the staff at the range.  Competitors show up, shoot, and scoot.  Price is about $30.  

 

I get get the concept of volunteerism in the sport, but if I have to choose whether to setup and tear down, versus shoot and scoot, the choice is obvious.  I’ll even pay more to shoot and scoot.  

 

 

Interesting. I very much enjoy the 60 minutes of setup and stage building and proofing and chatting with friends and getting newbies to our club pointed in the right direction.

[ATLDave]

2 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

Shooting sports are not cheap.  On top of that match fees are typically the absolute smallest of the re-occurring expenses we have as shooters.

 

If someone can't afford a $5 or $10 increase in match fees, how are they affording things we go through in the thousands like primers, bullets, powder, and brass?

I think you are wildly underestimating the typical expense of paying true market rates for competent setup.  

 

A clays course has a big initial outlay to get it set up correctly, and, after that, you're just running things mostly in maintenance mode.  USPSA matches are all different.  There's design work on every stage.  

 

This means you have to do one of two things: Someone either has to spend a huge amount of time laying out very, very precise stage designs on precisely scaled bay plans or the people setting it up have to have enough knowledge of the game and rules to be able to understand the concepts the designer is using and make minor tweaks to get things to work right.  

 

The first of those - have construction-grade blueprints for each stage - is not really viable for most matches.  It would take countless hours of work by the MD for every single stage.  There's a world of difference between a typical sketchup stage depiction and a true blueprint (as anyone has ever built stages from sketchup diagrams can attest, it never builds exactly the way it is shown - there's always something that doesn't quite work on the ground the way it worked in sketchup... it's just a very good starting point and guideline).  

 

So that means you have to have a game-knowledgable workforce.  You can't just go down to Home Depot and grab a couple of dudes from the parking lot and pay them $70 each to setup, tear down, and hang around all day in between.  I mean, you can do that, but all you'll really get from them is carrying of props or hammering spikes.  You still need very nearly as much shooter-contributed labor.

 

Now, if you are in some 3rd world country where unskilled labor is basically available for free, sure, you can throw a couple dozen dudes at it and have one knowledgeable person supervising setup.  But in most of the U.S., that's simply not a viable approach.  Club matches would cost what major matches cost or more.  And when other club matches are available for a quarter or a tenth of that price and just ask for a little sweat equity, those matches won't clear enough money to pay for the workforce.  

[CrashDodson]

35 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Interesting. I very much enjoy the 60 minutes of setup and stage building and proofing and chatting with friends and getting newbies to our club pointed in the right direction.

You should move to Texas!

[Maximis228]

7 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

The first of those - have construction-grade blueprints for each stage - is not really viable for most matches.  It would take countless hours of work by the MD for every single stage.  There's a world of difference between a typical sketchup stage depiction and a true blueprint (as anyone has ever built stages from sketchup diagrams can attest, it never builds exactly the way it is shown - there's always something that doesn't quite work on the ground the way it worked in sketchup... it's just a very good starting point and guideline). 

 

I build sketch ups on a 1 yard x 1 yard grid. Props are built to scale. Every single stage looks exactly as I design it in sketch up. Its a non issue. Most people dont turn the grid on, which is a big mistake. Its literally all how you how set up your template file for your range. Each range in our area has their own template file built to scale (For those who use sketch up). Makes things super easy and allows me to design stages for matches I wont be attending.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Maximis228

[IHAVEGAS]

45 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Interesting. I very much enjoy the 60 minutes of setup and stage building and proofing and chatting with friends and getting newbies to our club pointed in the right direction.

 

One of the best kept secrets of the sport is that this is fun, and a good learning opportunity, when enough people pitch in.

Too much work, too little help, sucks.

[CrashDodson]

10 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

 

I build sketch ups on a 1 yard x 1 yard grid. Props are built to scale. Every single stage looks exactly as I design it in sketch up. Its a non issue. Most people dont turn the grid on, which is a big mistake. Its literally all how you how set up your template file for your range. Each range in our area has their own template file built to scale (For those who use sketch up). Makes things super easy and allows me to design stages for matches I wont be attending.

I used the ruler to try and get my range template to scale but I have not seen or messed with the grid.  I will see if I can figure that out. 

[Maximis228]

2 minutes ago, CrashDodson said:

I used the ruler to try and get my range template to scale but I have not seen or messed with the grid.  I will see if I can figure that out. 

 

Some Examples of how ours look.

 

Port = Portable Trap

 

I also offer more angles on the printed word docs to make angles more obvious of certain props.

 

[ATLDave]

19 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

 

I build sketch ups on a 1 yard x 1 yard grid. Props are built to scale. Every single stage looks exactly as I design it in sketch up. Its a non issue. Most people dont turn the grid on, which is a big mistake. Its literally all how you how set up your template file for your range. Each range in our area has their own template file built to scale (For those who use sketch up). Makes things super easy and allows me to design stages for matches I wont be attending.

And do you have a grid on the ground at the range?  Are guys using lasers to measure things offs?  Tape measures everywhere as though they were setting up a classifier?

 

Or are they guys who have shot matches and built stages and know how to get it to work? 

 

Do you think if you brought in some landscapers who had never seen a USPSA match and never shot a gun they would get it built correctly?  And do so in the space of an hour per stage or less?  

 

My point is not that sketchup is bad (it's not).  My point is that having very cheap unskilled labor build the stages is not really viable in most US locales.  

Edited April 10, 2019 by ATLDave