Which call has priority?

[Mcfoto]

According to the rule book, the RM is supposed to "calibrate" every popper by firing at it with a designated 9mm with ammo that has been chronographed close to minimum Power Factor from the closest fault line. If during the match a popper fails to fall and the competitor challenges it, the RM is supposed to approximate where the competitor was when shooting with said "match" firearm and ammo. For most practical purposes in a Level 1 club match, the RO usually borrows a 9 from someone in the squad shooting factory ammo to test it. 

 

@Sargewill be along shortly to tell us how much of the above is right. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Mcfoto

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

According to the rule book, the RM is supposed to "calibrate" every popper by firing at it with a designated 9mm with ammo that has been chronographed close to minimum Power Factor from the closest fault line. If during the match a popper fails to fall and the competitor challenges it, the RM is supposed to approximate where the competitor was when shooting with said "match" firearm and ammo. For most practical purposes in a Level 1 club match, the RO usually borrows a 9 from someone in the squad shooting factory ammo to test it. 

 

@Sargewill be along shortly to tell us how much of the above is right. 

Sounds pretty good.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Mcfoto said:

According to the rule book, the RM is supposed to "calibrate" every popper by firing at it with a designated 9mm with ammo that has been chronographed close to minimum Power Factor from the closest fault line. If during the match a popper fails to fall and the competitor challenges it, the RM is supposed to approximate where the competitor was when shooting with said "match" firearm and ammo. For most practical purposes in a Level 1 club match, the RO usually borrows a 9 from someone in the squad shooting factory ammo to test it. 

 

@Sargewill be along shortly to tell us how much of the above is right. 

 

 

Or initial calibration with official knuckle rap, and if a calibration is called for, the call goes out, "which one of you limpwristers is shootin minor 9".  Then the limpwrister shoots the popper in the calibration zone, the popper falls and a mike is called.  Least that is the way it generally gets handled a club matches 

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

Sounds pretty good.

 

3 hours ago, Mcfoto said:

According to the rule book, the RM is supposed to "calibrate" every popper by firing at it with a designated 9mm with ammo that has been chronographed close to minimum Power Factor from the closest fault line. If during the match a popper fails to fall and the competitor challenges it, the RM is supposed to approximate where the competitor was when shooting with said "match" firearm and ammo. For most practical purposes in a Level 1 club match, the RO usually borrows a 9 from someone in the squad shooting factory ammo to test it. 

 

@Sargewill be along shortly to tell us how much of the above is right. 

Sounds pretty crappy to me,,  
If you are gonna run a match with poppers, you should take a few minutes to have a 9mm and a batch of chrono'd calibration ammo.
Otherwise surprised Rowdy even posted this question as it is pretty clear in rule book... 4.3.1.6

[Sarge]

27 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

 

Sounds pretty crappy to me,,  
If you are gonna run a match with poppers, you should take a few minutes to have a 9mm and a batch of chrono'd calibration ammo.
Otherwise surprised Rowdy even posted this question as it is pretty clear in rule book... 4.3.1.6

  I wonder how many level I matches have a gun and calibration ammo on hand. I have NEVER seen it unless an RM local to us happens to be shooting that day and happens to have his stuff with him.

 I was shooting a level I match with an Area Director once and a popper needed calibrated. He asked who was shooting Production and asked to borrow their gun and ammo. 

  Remember, the majority of the rules are written with major matches in mind. Level I matches are almost an afterthought even though they comprise 99% of the matches shot.

[Joe4d]

Again, pretty crappy,, shot lots of level 1's and generally was there to help set up,, multiple cubs in HI, and VA and NC,,, had someone come through with a 9mm and shoot poppers after set up but before match and had us calibrate. Actually dont recall ever helping set up a match with poppers that this didnt happen.
Must be laziness these days. 

 

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Again, pretty crappy,, shot lots of level 1's and generally was there to help set up,, multiple cubs in HI, and VA and NC,,, had someone come through with a 9mm and shoot poppers after set up but before match and had us calibrate. Actually dont recall ever helping set up a match with poppers that this didnt happen.
Must be laziness these days. 

 

Never used the knuckle tap?  I have been shooting for a few days and several clubs and very rarely see a  calibration during setup, basically only when some one is real unsure of a big popper or something.  I also almost never see a calibration call and the popper not go down at these same clubs. Granted we just shoot the calibration call with somebody's production gun not "official" calibration ammo, but still

[robchavous]

Again, pretty crappy,, shot lots of level 1's and generally was there to help set up,, multiple cubs in HI, and VA and NC,,, had someone come through with a 9mm and shoot poppers after set up but before match and had us calibrate. Actually dont recall ever helping set up a match with poppers that this didnt happen.

Must be laziness these days. 

 

You can pretty effectively calibrate stuff without shooting it. We even went over that in the CRO class. We rarely have an issue with popper calibration at our club matches.

 

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[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, robchavous said:

You can pretty effectively calibrate stuff without shooting it.

 

Probably something missing from the discussion is that there is a great deal of variance in popper design. The dimensions are specified but quality of construction, particularly the design and fabrication of the pivot point,  can be all over the map.

 

And then there are the forward falling poppers. The greatest disruption I've seen at a level 2 involved several attempts to make the hooks holding the poppers vertical disengage consistently. In general I hate forward calling poppers.  

[robchavous]

 
Probably something missing from the discussion is that there is a great deal of variance in popper design. The dimensions are specified but quality of construction, particularly the design and fabrication of the pivot point,  can be all over the map.
 
And then there are the forward falling poppers. The greatest disruption I've seen at a level 2 involved several attempts to make the hooks holding the poppers vertical disengage consistently. In general I hate forward calling poppers.  

The last issue with a popper at our local that I remember was a forward falling popper. We ended up just changing it to rear falling.

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[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

  I wonder how many level I matches have a gun and calibration ammo on hand. I have NEVER seen it unless an RM local to us happens to be shooting that day and happens to have his stuff with him.

 

If you are an RM/MD and you don't have calibration ammo, and are just making do with full power ammo for calibration challenges,  I believe you are ignoring important rules.

 

I always have a handful of subminor 9mm rounds in my range bag. So does our local RMI. I don't usually shoot 9mm, and not everyone is overjoyed to shoot someone else's handloads through their gun, but we've never had a problem finding someone in the squad with a 9mm that is happy to do it. If we did squad with old cranky scared people, I would just bring a 9mm in the car that I could grab when necessary.

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

 not everyone is overjoyed to shoot someone else's handloads through their gun, but we've never had a problem finding someone in the squad with a 9mm that is happy to do it.

That's also ignoring an important rule. The ammo should be chronoed in one gun and that COMBO is suitable for calibration. Sticking it in any old 9mm gun doesn't meet the requirement.

[motosapiens]

24 minutes ago, Sarge said:

That's also ignoring an important rule. The ammo should be chronoed in one gun and that COMBO is suitable for calibration. Sticking it in any old 9mm gun doesn't meet the requirement.

 

so you think intentionally screwing over shooters by using overpowered ammo is closer to the rules than shooting ammo through a different gun that might not be exactly the same PF as the one it was tested in?

 

It is interesting that you are very literal about the rules when it comes to punishing shooters, and somewhat less literal about the rules that protect them.

[Sarge]

Just pointing out doing what you do is not legit. I don't screw over shooters but I also don't coddle. 

[Acer2428]

Interesting convo, appreciate all the input. Had really never thought of it. I've seen a calibration done at the local club, but they did the same thing and fired a factory 115gr out of a production gun and called it good.

 

That said, even WWB is going to be 130+ PF, no? While I'm not a fan of PF floor scraping, it's legal and as such shouldn't be penalized. Even my PCC loads are 130-135PF and might fail where a production gun firing factory ammo would succeed. 

 

Chrono'd/calibrated 124-126PF ammo out of 'full-size' i.e. 4-5" bbl'd gun seems like a pretty good compromise for a club match to me. 

[HCH]

The best one I ever witnessed was at a level II. 

 

Shooter hits popper and popper does not fall. Shooter calls for calibration. 

 

RM comes over, loads pistol, popper falls. Hard. 

 

Shooter: “Man, that ammo you’re calibrating with seem hot.”

 

RM: “Just factory 124 grain American Eagle; 134 PF.”

 

 

The shooter got a reshoot and more-correct ammunition was used later in the match

[HCH]

5 minutes ago, Acer2428 said:

Interesting convo, appreciate all the input. Had really never thought of it. I've seen a calibration done at the local club, but they did the same thing and fired a factory 115gr out of a production gun and called it good.

 

That said, even WWB is going to be 130+ PF, no? While I'm not a fan of PF floor scraping, it's legal and as such shouldn't be penalized. Even my PCC loads are 130-135PF and might fail where a production gun firing factory ammo would succeed. 

 

Chrono'd/calibrated 124-126PF ammo out of 'full-size' i.e. 4-5" bbl'd gun seems like a pretty good compromise for a club match to me. 

 

115-125 PF, according to the rules. 

[Mcfoto]

Dang it, @HCHbeat me to it:

 

"The calibration ammunition, when tested through each designated firearm, should achieve a power factor between 115.0 and 125.0 to qualify."

 

So technically, a competitor can challenge a popper and win while shooting sub PF ammo?

[Corrado_kid]

Our local club has a gun and Calibration ammo at every match. I’ve only needed to call calibration 1 time and our rm came down and did the calibration check. Popper fell over and the shooter  was issued 1 mike. 

 

I’ve also been to other local matches and was told just to give the shooter a reshoot with no question of calibration being done. 

 

Most at times is there is a calibration issue it’s pretty apparent and the poppers won’t fall even when shooting major. 

 

I’ve found each scenario at a level 1 Match is handled according to the issue at hand. Not all steel is painted between each shooter and it’s hard to address which shot could have been the shooter in question. If it’s a first or second shooter on a stage it’s usually easy to figure out which shot was there’s because steel is painted after a squad finishes a stage. 

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Just pointing out doing what you do is not legit. I don't screw over shooters but I also don't coddle. 

you admitted to not following one of the key rules meant to protect shooters from getting screwed over.....

 

but, since I want to be a rules nazi, I will start bringing my 9mm 1911 with me, so I can use the exact combination that has been tested.

Edited March 21, 2019 by motosapiens

[DKorn]

20 hours ago, Mcfoto said:

According to the rule book, the RM is supposed to "calibrate" every popper by firing at it with a designated 9mm with ammo that has been chronographed close to minimum Power Factor from the closest fault line. If during the match a popper fails to fall and the competitor challenges it, the RM is supposed to approximate where the competitor was when shooting with said "match" firearm and ammo. For most practical purposes in a Level 1 club match, the RO usually borrows a 9 from someone in the squad shooting factory ammo to test it. 

 

@Sargewill be along shortly to tell us how much of the above is right. 

 

I was under the same impression as you, but I actually just double checked Appendix C1. Initial calibration is actually supposed to be done from the farthest location that the popper could be shot from in the stage. I assume that this (and the ammo being subminor) is done to ensure that even the lightest possible hit on the calibration zone (125 PF ammo at the furthest possible distance) during the match has the best chance to knock the popper down. 

[Sarge]

26 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you admitted to not following one of the key rules meant to protect shooters from getting screwed over.....

 

but, since I want to be a rules nazi, I will start bringing my 9mm 1911 with me, so I can use the exact combination that has been tested.

Actually, I never said I don't follow the rules. I'm not a level I match Director. Nobody gets screwed over at any of the local matches around here. Usually if it's a good hit in the calibration zone we come to some agreement to reshoot them. 

 

By bringing your 1911 and matching ammo you are almost doing it by the book. Your ammo needs chronoed at the match as well. Chronoing once then calling it good forever is not legit.

 

App C1

2. Prior to commencement of a match, the calibration ammunition must be chronographed using the procedure specified in Appendix C2.

 

4. The Range Master must arrange for each popper to be calibrated prior to commencement of a match, and whenever required during a match.

 

5. For initial calibration, each popper must be set to fall when hit within the calibration zone with a single shot fired from a designated firearm using the calibration ammunition. The shot must be fired from the shooting location in the course of fire furthest from the popper being calibrated. Calibration zones are indicated in the diagrams in Appendix B2.

 

And to take this idiotic argument to another level you should have a match chronograph because:

 

App C2 14. A sufficient supply of match calibration ammunition must be available and used to calibrate steel targets and (when necessary) verify the match chronograph.

 

So like I said, this is not typical of level I matches.

[Mcfoto]

2 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

I was under the same impression as you, but I actually just double checked Appendix C1. Initial calibration is actually supposed to be done from the farthest location that the popper could be shot from in the stage. I assume that this (and the ammo being subminor) is done to ensure that even the lightest possible hit on the calibration zone (125 PF ammo at the furthest possible distance) during the match has the best chance to knock the popper down. 

 

So I got 90% on my quiz? 

 

Yes, I went back after posting this and saw my error. Thanks for the correction.

[RJH]

This stuff is always fun to discuss.  Here is my favorite calabration story, and it happened fairly recently at a club match:

 

 

Shooter rings some steel, we tell him call for calibration, then we notice he is  the only  one with a 9.  So he gets to shoot the popper with his match gun/ammo on a calabration for himself. He center punches the popper, it falls, and he gets the mike. And yes that is a true story, and  was funny as hell

Edited March 21, 2019 by RJH

[DKorn]

@Sarge @motosapiens

 

What would be a set of reasonable best practices for local matches?

 

Obviously, getting out the chrono every match isn’t reasonable, but I would say that there’s probably a reasonable middle ground between “chrono once and call it good forever” and chronoing every match. 

 

Maybe chronoing a representative sample of every batch of the “calibration ammo”, in temperature ranges fairly close to that of the actual match?

 

In any case, anything is already a huge improvement over “who’s shooting 9?”  My minor loads make around 133 PF, so they’re already hotter than chrono ammo should be.