Which call has priority?

[davsco]

18 minutes ago, robchavous said:

Yes plates no matter how they are connected are not subject to calibration.

do the rules (or any rulings) say this?  the plate pics in the appendix exclusively show plates that rest on stands or the like, with no tension or other means of attachment or retention.  is there a rule or ruling that says that texas stars and any steel that doesn't simply rest on stands are nonetheless considered 'plates' not subject to calibration?

[Lastcat]

6 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Shooter is engaging a steel plate held to the post by the spring and clamp like used on many Texas stars. Steel does not fall with a first or second shoot directly on the plate. While the RO is in the process of saying "Stop" for a range equipment malfunction the shooter fires a third shot.

 

The third shot was fired while the RO said stop. That third shot was found to be a squib. What happens?

 

This happened on a squad Hopkins and I were on this weekend and we couldn't come to a sure answer. And I'm not an RO so turning to the group here who is and has more experience.

 

1)     Shooter is engaging a steel plate held to the post by the spring and clamp like used on many Texas stars. All Good. As long as 2.1.3 applies (23’ or 26’ distance’s).

 

2)     Steel does not fall with a first or second shot, directly on the plate.

 

(a)   4.3.1.6 Unlike Poppers (which are subject to calibration), metal plates are NOT subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

 

(b)   In this case, the RO should stop the Shooter, declare a REF and order a Reshoot. Remedy the squib first, and then address the REF last.

 

3)     While the RO is in the process of saying "Stop" for a range equipment malfunction, the shooter fires a third shot.

 

(a)   4.3.1.6 Still applies …. the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

 

(b)   Firing a shot in the act of a RO trying to stop a competitor for a REF, is incidental. Not a procedure or DQ. The competitor may not have heard the first Stop command. The RO may repeat the Stop command, in order to declare the REF. As long as the competitor did not intentionally fire the shot after they were actively stopped. Or continue the COF intentionally, while the RO is trying to declare the REF. Then 10.6.2 applies. Failing to comply with the RO.

 

 

4)     The third shot was fired while the RO said stop. That third shot was found to be a squib. What happens?

 

(a) No penalty or DQ.

 

(c)    5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe firearm or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition.

 

(d)   The RO was in the act of stopping the competitor for the REF. The squib is now a new action to remedy. Actions by the RO need to apply, to return the competitor and range to a safe condition first. Then address the REF last.

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Lastcat

[Gary Stevens]

On 3/19/2019 at 9:54 PM, egd5 said:

What about a popper that activates a swinger.  I shot the popper twice with good hits and nothing happened, therefore I couldn't shoot the swinger. I just stopped and looked at the ro and he said "I saw you hit it twice, it's a reshoot"

Were we both correct? Is that what I should have done? It was in the middle of the cof.

 

If you are finished unload and show clear. Call RM who will inspect the popper, without disturbing it, and check the calibration. If it falls scored as shot. If it fails to fall reshoot.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Gary Stevens

[robchavous]

do the rules (or any rulings) say this?  the plate pics in the appendix exclusively show plates that rest on stands or the like, with no tension or other means of attachment or retention.  is there a rule or ruling that says that texas stars and any steel that doesn't simply rest on stands are nonetheless considered 'plates' not subject to calibration?

Are there any rules or rulings supporting your assertion that the plates on a star are actually poppers? I think you are way over thinking it.

The rules specify the size and shape. If they meet that they are usable plates and appropriate scoring rules apply.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[DKorn]

16 minutes ago, robchavous said:

Are there any rules or rulings supporting your assertion that the plates on a star are actually poppers? I think you are way over thinking it.

The rules specify the size and shape. If they meet that they are usable plates and appropriate scoring rules apply.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

 

Agreed. A popper must be the size and shape of one of the poppers called out in Appendix B2. Any other steel target is not a popper and should be scored as a steel plate, assuming that it meets the criteria in Appendix B3. Anything that doesn’t meet either criteria isn’t a legal steel target for USPSA. 

[rowdyb]

Thank you lastcat.

 

In the match, on the range what happened was reshoot for equipment malfunction.  It just took the shooter a while as he had to clear a squib first.

Edited March 20, 2019 by rowdyb

[Lastcat]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Thank you lastcat.

 

In the match, on the range what happened was reshoot for equipment malfunction.  It just took the shooter a while as he had to clear a squib first.

 

You are welcome rowdyB. Been there and seen it. Most RO's are just trying to get everyone through the Match and come home safe. Especially when the Squad all works together, makes for a better time.

[Bhayden]

5 hours ago, egd5 said:

What about a popper that activates a swinger.  I shot the popper twice with good hits and nothing happened, therefore I couldn't shoot the swinger. I just stopped and looked at the ro and he said "I saw you hit it twice, it's a reshoot"

Were we both correct? Is that what I should have done? It was in the middle of the cof.

No, it’s not an automatic reshoot. This is a case where you should have finished the stage and asked for calibration. As the RO, ive had this happen at a level 2 match. My response when the shooter looked at me and said it didn’t go down was ‘if you are finished.....’. Later at chrono, we found out that he was shooting sub minor ammo.

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, egd5 said:

What about a popper that activates a swinger.  I shot the popper twice with good hits and nothing happened, therefore I couldn't shoot the swinger. I just stopped and looked at the ro and he said "I saw you hit it twice, it's a reshoot"

Were we both correct? Is that what I should have done? It was in the middle of the cof.

 

Side issue, but. 

If you are shooting minor, you will occasionally get screwed when shooting the full size steel poppers. Some of them react differently to a good shot toward one side of the scoring zone versus the other side or the center, some of them react differently because they have enough slop that it allows them to be set differently, all of them react differently if they are on mud or otherwise soft soil and moving during the match, and all of them can be held up (or blown down) by wind. It is what it is I think.

 

The small poppers work better and nicer for the set up crew. 

[PatJones]

 
Side issue, but. 
If you are shooting minor, you will occasionally get screwed when shooting the full size steel poppers. Some of them react differently to a good shot toward one side of the scoring zone versus the other side or the center, some of them react differently because they have enough slop that it allows them to be set differently, all of them react differently if they are on mud or otherwise soft soil and moving during the match, and all of them can be held up (or blown down) by wind. It is what it is I think.
 
The small poppers work better and nicer for the set up crew. 

I think poppers should be treated the same as plates and calibration should go away. If you've been in the sport any length of time, you've seen someone's match compromised by calibration. A hit in or above the calibration zone where the plate doesn't fall should be a reshoot.

Poppers are supposed to respect power factor, not test it. We have chronographs to test power factor. By the time the range master gets to your stage and calibrates the popper, we could have finished the reshoot and been on to the next shooter.

[egd5]

OK, thanks everyone. btw, It had moved in the soft soil to where it wouldn't fall.

[RJH]

41 minutes ago, PatJones said:

I think poppers should be treated the same as plates and calibration should go away. If you've been in the sport any length of time, you've seen someone's match compromised by calibration. A hit in or above the calibration zone where the plate doesn't fall should be a reshoot.

Poppers are supposed to respect power factor, not test it. We have chronographs to test power factor. By the time the range master gets to your stage and calibrates the popper, we could have finished the reshoot and been on to the next shooter.
 

I vote against this and like the as it is now.  Shooters have the option to drive one down, or take their chances. Chronos only test the ammo the shooter handed over for the chrono test, not what theyare using in match. I think poppers keep people honest

 

And I shoot major so maybe i am biased haha

Edited March 20, 2019 by RJH

[Nevadazielmeister]

12 hours ago, facedown said:

4.3.1.6 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.
               4.3.1.6.1 A plate that has been hit more than once and falls or overturns before a Range Officer can stop the competitor, will be scored as hit and there will be no reshoot issued.

 

As to the squib, IMO, the RO had made the decision to stop the shooter and had begun the command so that's the end of it.  Reset, reshoot.

 

Having JUST taken the NROI course 2 weeks ago from Troy McManus, I learned that this is the correct rule. All was done correctly and there were no safety violations. 

 

As this was taken out of context, it is unclear.  If there were more squibs in the competition, and the RO had declared the ammunition unsafe, then the RO could have DQ'd the competitor for unsafe ammunition:

 

0. 10.5.15.1 Ammunition declared unsafe by a Range Official due to multiple squibs, shall not subject the competitor to disqualification, unless the competitor continues to use said ammunition after a Range Official has declared it unsafe.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

think poppers should be treated the same as plates and calibration should go away. If you've been in the sport any length of time, you've seen someone's match compromised by calibration. A hit in or above the calibration zone where the plate doesn't fall should be a reshoot.

 

If I'm ever elected King we will do things your way  .

 

Last time I had an issue was when I had a partial edge hit in the scoring zone. I knew I hit it and moved on without watching for it to fall, on the calibration check shot nearer the center it fell.

 

I guess the lesson is don't hit big poppers on the edge when shooting minor, but it is a weird thing because with every other target a partial hit is a hit. 

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Side issue, but. 

If you are shooting minor, you will occasionally get screwed when shooting the full size steel poppers if the RO's are doing a crappy job of managing their steel.

fixed. 

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

fixed. 

 

The really really good r.o.'s also manage the wind gusts. 

 

 

[bret]

12 hours ago, egd5 said:

What about a popper that activates a swinger.  I shot the popper twice with good hits and nothing happened, therefore I couldn't shoot the swinger. I just stopped and looked at the ro and he said "I saw you hit it twice, it's a reshoot"

Were we both correct? Is that what I should have done? It was in the middle of the cof.

Not a reshoot.

 

Keep shooting and after the COF you can ask for a calibration,  if it fails, you get a reshoot.

 

If you stop it is scored as shot.

[IHAVEGAS]

Hmm 9.9.3 in the old book.

"Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement"

 

My assumption would have been that disappearing targets would not have been FTSA procedurals. 

[RJH]

38 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If I'm ever elected King we will do things your way  .

 

Last time I had an issue was when I had a partial edge hit in the scoring zone. I knew I hit it and moved on without watching for it to fall, on the calibration check shot nearer the center it fell.

 

I guess the lesson is don't hit big poppers on the edge when shooting minor, but it is a weird thing because with every other target a partial hit is a hit. 

 

Nah, you just didn't "cut the perf" so to speak   This the main reason why I think poppers should be subject to calabration and i hope they never change it

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Nah, you just didn't "cut the perf" so to speak  

 

Would be interesting to see if a 9mm bullet from an open gun would have dropped the target with a hit in the same spot & you see crazy low hits drop steel sometimes with major power factor ammo so it is sort of like the perf on the bottom is 18" wide. 

 

In any case, it is what it is, no worries. 

[ChuckS]

Well, I think it is totally unfair to have kinetic energy be 0.5 x mass x velocity^2. We need to get DNROI to get it changed to 0.5 x mass x velocity.

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Well, I think it is totally unfair to have kinetic energy be 0.5 x mass x velocity^2. We need to get DNROI to get it changed to 0.5 x mass x velocity.

 

Wouldn't be any odder than the '1 foot in and 1 foot faulting is the same as out' ruling.

[facedown]

5 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

As this was taken out of context, it is unclear.  If there were more squibs in the competition, and the RO had declared the ammunition unsafe, then the RO could have DQ'd the competitor for unsafe ammunition:

 

 

 

Correct.

[egd5]

With all the talk of calibration, I know the concept, but how exactly is it done? what is used to measure with, what is the measurement, how is it performed, are their tolerances, etc. etc.???

[IHAVEGAS]

USPSA rulebook appendix c1. Too long to type.