Which call has priority?

[ChuckS]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

This stuff is always fun to discuss.  Here is my favorite calabration story, and it happened fairly recently at a club match:

 

 

Shooter rings some steel, we tell him call for calibration, then we notice he is  the only  one with a 9.  So he gets to shoot the popper with his match gun/ammo on a calabration for himself. He center punches the popper, it falls, and he gets the mike. And yes that is a true story, and  was funny as hell

He didn't know he should hit it high?

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

By bringing your 1911 and matching ammo you are almost doing it by the book. Your ammo needs chronoed at the match as well. Chronoing once then calling it good forever is not legit.

 

 

luckily, I'm not actually a rules-nazi trying to screw people over, and I'm good at math, so I know that chrono-ing once and calling it good forever is *scientifically* legit.

[Flatland Shooter]

Last time I called for a popper calibration, RO asked "who is shooting 9mm"? 

 

One intrepid soul raised his hand but advised his ammo chronos at 145 PF. 

 

RO said "good enough" 

 

It fell.

[IHAVEGAS]

6 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

He didn't know he should hit it high?

 

Probably didn't know he should aim at the bottom of the scoring zone on the calibration check  .

 

All kidding aside, shoot minor at full sized poppers and sometimes you get screwed.

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

He didn't know he should hit it high?

 

We told him if he didn't hit the center he was getting a mike

[Flatland Shooter]

As for Level 1 matches, I do feel that if you are running poppers in a classifier, a legal "god" gun ( shooting ammo just under 125 PF) should be available. 

 

Just to be fair.

[IHAVEGAS]

Just now, Flatland Shooter said:

"god" gun

 

1911?

[DKorn]

Here are my two ideas for local matches to do the best job possible without putting undue strain on the match director:

 

1- Treat all poppers as plates for the purposes of calibration. If you hit it and it doesn’t fall, it’s a reshoot. If a pattern is noticed with a particular target, it should be adjusted. If a pattern is noted with a particular shooter, that shooter’s ammo should probably be chronoed.

 

2- The RM, MD, or their designee should acquire 9mm ammo that falls between 115 and 125 PF out of a particular gun. That ammo should ideally be chronoed at the extreme high, extreme low, and approximate average temperatures expected to be experienced during local matches. Poppers should be initially calibrated manually (no calibration shot) unless there is a concern about a particular setup or target in which case it should be checked per Appendix C1 using the above mentioned ammo and gun. The above mentioned ammo and gun will be used for calibration challenges during the match.

 

Optionally, you could have a chrono available but not set up in case someone wants to argue about the calibration ammo, that way you could always recheck it and prove that it’s acceptable. 

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, DKorn said:

@Sarge @motosapiens

 

What would be a set of reasonable best practices for local matches?

 

Obviously, getting out the chrono every match isn’t reasonable, but I would say that there’s probably a reasonable middle ground between “chrono once and call it good forever” and chronoing every match. 

 

Maybe chronoing a representative sample of every batch of the “calibration ammo”, in temperature ranges fairly close to that of the actual match?

 

In any case, anything is already a huge improvement over “who’s shooting 9?”  My minor loads make around 133 PF, so they’re already hotter than chrono ammo should be. 

 

 

For local matches, I don't have any issue with chrono once and call it good (from the same batch) forever. I've been chrono-ing a long time, and i do it a couple times a month, and the same batch chronos the same forever, in all weather conditions, at least with the powder I use. Even if it varies 1-4 pf, by starting at 118 or so, i feel confident that we'll be much closer to the recommended range than by using factory ammo.  Now if I run out and have to load another couple hundred calibration rounds, i'm not going to rely on my notes and measurements, I'm going to chrono that batch again.

 

IMHO, more important is for each squad to double-check the steel with a knuckle-test when they first get to the stage, since we all know that steel settles and moves around and it is shot and reset. That prevents alot of issues.

[Flatland Shooter]

When I'd supply the "god" gun, it was a S&W 586 with 122 - 124 PF ammo.

 

Only good reason for me to have a revolver.  

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, DKorn said:

@Sarge @motosapiens

 

What would be a set of reasonable best practices for local matches?

 

Obviously, getting out the chrono every match isn’t reasonable, but I would say that there’s probably a reasonable middle ground between “chrono once and call it good forever” and chronoing every match. 

 

Maybe chronoing a representative sample of every batch of the “calibration ammo”, in temperature ranges fairly close to that of the actual match?

 

In any case, anything is already a huge improvement over “who’s shooting 9?”  My minor loads make around 133 PF, so they’re already hotter than chrono ammo should be. 

Chronos are different at every match. Sometimes they just read differently. That's how your ammo ends up 133 at one match and 132 or 134 at another match. Blame it on the devices variations, weather, whatever. Trying to chrono calibration ammo in temp ranges close to that of an actual match? Do you know the weather conditions of a match this coming August? Of course not. Sure we can assume it will be hot and sunny but what if it's raining and cooler than normal? This is why we can't say "my calibration ammo is 124 today". It could easily be 126 and therefore not legit. If you look around at our locals we generally use the knuckle test to initially calibrate then RO's should be knuckle checking when you show up with your squad. You are correct in that "who shoots a nine" is not really a good way to do it but neither is trying to do any level of calibration other than the EXACT process laid out in the rules. So the easiest half assed way is the best way. LOL

[DKorn]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

luckily, I'm not actually a rules-nazi trying to screw people over, and I'm good at math, so I know that chrono-ing once and calling it good forever is *scientifically* legit.

 

The only caveat here is if your powder is temperature sensitive or if there is large variation from batch to batch in your reloads.

 

Otherwise, I would tend to agree that chronoing a statistically significant sample size from a batch of ammo should be sufficient. And you can always rechrono more of it later if someone gets butthurt about it. 

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

Last time I called for a popper calibration, RO asked "who is shooting 9mm"? 

 

One intrepid soul raised his hand but advised his ammo chronos at 145 PF. 

 

RO said "good enough" 

 

It fell.

LOL No kidding!

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, DKorn said:

 

The only caveat here is if your powder is temperature sensitive or if there is large variation from batch to batch in your reloads.

 

Otherwise, I would tend to agree that chronoing a statistically significant sample size from a batch of ammo should be sufficient. And you can always rechrono more of it later if someone gets butthurt about it. 

This is another reason to chrono AT THE MATCH ON AN OFFICIAL CHRONO. Let's say I shoot a popper and it needs calibrated and you shoot it with your "legit" calibration ammo and it falls. My first thought will be to call it bogus because I don't have a clue if you really chronoed it at all or in what gun.

[Flatland Shooter]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

LOL No kidding!

 

Nope.  It would have been my first M class perecentage classifier if it fell.

 

Remember it well.

[DKorn]

Just now, Sarge said:

This is another reason to chrono AT THE MATCH ON AN OFFICIAL CHRONO. Let's say I shoot a popper and it needs calibrated and you shoot it with your "legit" calibration ammo and it falls. My first thought will be to call it bogus because I don't have a clue if you really chronoed it at all or in what gun.

 

Right, but at a local match with no official chrono, isn’t ammo that is highly likely in the appropriate range still better than random 9mm from whoever?

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Right, but at a local match with no official chrono, isn’t ammo that is highly likely in the appropriate range still better than random 9mm from whoever?

Better? yes. Correct ? no. My whole point is if it's not done by the book, which it never is a local matches, then why bother? I would still challenge your ammo. Ten years from now let's sit down after a match and talk about how many shooters you saw get screwed at a local over calibration. In the last ten years I have seen none.

[DKorn]

20 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Better? yes. Correct ? no. My whole point is if it's not done by the book, which it never is a local matches, then why bother? I would still challenge your ammo. Ten years from now let's sit down after a match and talk about how many shooters you saw get screwed at a local over calibration. In the last ten years I have seen none.

 

Fair enough. I tend to overthink these things even when it isn’t necessary. 

 

I still think the best solution is to change the rules and just treat everything the way we currently treat plates. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Better? yes. Correct ? no. My whole point is if it's not done by the book, which it never is a local matches, then why bother? I would still challenge your ammo. Ten years from now let's sit down after a match and talk about how many shooters you saw get screwed at a local over calibration. In the last ten years I have seen none.

 

Your point is imho a terrible one. You are saying, if we can't do it perfectly by the book, then doing it 95% right and totally in the spirit of the rules is a waste of time, and we should totally flaunt the rules and do what we KNOW is wrong instead.

 

We must shoot with nicer people at our local matches, because no one has EVER challenged our ammo.  

 

Are you sure about not seeing any screw-overs. Every shooter that got a mike because a popper fell using overpowered calibration ammo got screwed over. The fact that you don't see that as getting screwed over is slightly alarming. Seems like playing pretty fast and loose with the rules.

Edited March 21, 2019 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Your point is imho a terrible one. You are saying, if we can't do it perfectly by the book, then doing it 95% right and totally in the spirit of the rules is a waste of time, and we should totally flaunt the rules and do what we KNOW is wrong instead.

 

We must shoot with nicer people at our local matches, because no one has EVER challenged our ammo.  

 

You are not telling the truth about screw-overs. Every shooter that got a mike because a popper fell using overpowered calibration ammo got screwed over. The fact that you don't see that as getting screwed over is slightly alarming. Seems like playing pretty fast and loose with the rules.

Stop making s#!t up. I said I have never seen a shooter screwed over at a local over calibration. And I stand by that. However, I have seen plenty of shooters lose calibration calls at majors. Not screwed over. 

  Shooters are pretty nice people around here but they tend to know the rules and will smile when questioning ammo pulled out of a hat to calibrate.

[ima45dv8]

STOP arguing AT each other!

Wanna discuss rules? Fine.

Wanna get a time-out for picking at each other like a couple of schoolyard kids? That's fine also.

 

[Sarge]

27 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Fair enough. I tend to overthink these things even when it isn’t necessary. 

 

I still think the best solution is to change the rules and just treat everything the way we currently treat plates. 

  Nothing wrong with overthinking rules as long as it doesn’t blind you to other opinions. 

  Poppers treated like plates wouldn’t work. A 100 PF load will knock a plate over if hit solid when it won’t even budge a big popper that isn’t set like a hair trigger. Poppers recognize power and plates really don’t. If anything plates should be restricted to level I matches.

  

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

STOP arguing AT each other!

Wanna discuss rules? Fine.

Wanna get a time-out for picking at each other like a couple of schoolyard kids? That's fine also.

 

Well I got called a liar.....

[motosapiens]

Please accept my most abject apologies for any unintended slight. i must have misunderstood the situation. It sounded like you were saying you have never seen a shooter lose a popper calibration challenge at a local match when using factory or competition (over specified PF) ammunition for calibration (textbook definition of getting screwed over). That seemed surprising to me since you stated you don't follow the rules about calibration ammo at your matches.

 

Can you explain more fully what is happening? Are there no calibration challenges at your matches? Or do the shooters always win them? Or are you actually using sub-minor calibration ammo?

[motosapiens]

17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

  Shooters are pretty nice people around here but they tend to know the rules and will smile when questioning ammo pulled out of a hat to calibrate.

 

But they won't question using known overpowered ammo to calibrate? That seems odd, but perhaps I have misunderstood what you are saying.

 

fwiw, I keep my calibration ammo in a plastic baggy, not a hat. It is marked 'sub-minor calibration ammo 117pf'.