Rule 9.1.3

[Lastcat]

Rule 9.1.3

I am stuck and need a clear understanding of this rule (Jan 2019 new Rules). I have RO’d a few times at Level I. I’m attending a RO Class in a few days, not trolling here, just trying to get a better understanding of this rule.

9.1.3 Prematurely Patched Targets – If a target is prematurely patched or taped,

which prevents a Range Official from determining the actual score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire. 

However, if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than a Range Officer, the score will stand as called regardless of the competitor's opportunity to see the target in question and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called. 

Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.

 

Let me add a scenario. At the start there are 2 targets to the left and 2 targets to the right. Shooter moves downrange 15 yards, 2 targets left and 2 targets right. Shooter moves downrange, 2 targets left, plate rack in the middle, 2 targets to the right. “If you are finished….etc”. “Range is clear”.

 

I score all downrange targets first and approach the first 2 targets at the start on the right and score. Then the last 2 targets on the left and they are blank. This is either a Re-Shoot or I put on my Sherlock Holmes Hat and play detective.

 

1.  I watched the shooter engage all targets and he fired 2 shots each at all scoring targets.  But somehow the last 2 targets are blank/taped. I call a “Re-Shoot”. But a competitor (named Bob a non-assigned RO) calls out, it was a A/C and C/D. This is where the Rabbit Hole begins.

 

2.  I call 4 Mikes and 2 Proc. for FTSA. By rule 9.1.3, this is the proper call. But, I watched him engage those targets. So I ignore Bob and apply no penalties and call for a Re-Shoot. Now since Bob came forth and claimed he patched the 2 targets. Can I also penalized Bob with 2 proc. for interference 9.1.1? I then have a talk with Bob and ask him to please wait. If Bob does it again, I’m going to DQ him for 10.6.2

 

3. Or, an assigned RO states he taped the 2 targets and calls out A/C and C/D. Good enough, I’ll allow the scores to be entered. If the assigned RO does not recall the proper score, it’s a Re-Shoot.

 

Paragraph 2: However, if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than a Range Officer, the score will stand as called regardless of the competitor's opportunity to see the target in question and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called.

 

1.  “if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer”. This is where I get lost. So I am scoring targets and an assigned RO is ahead of me and tapes the 2 targets and calls out A/C and C/D. Good enough, scores entered. Or the assigned RO I am following and forgets the scores, I call for a Re-Shoot.

 

2. Or, I am following a non-assigned RO (Bob) and he calls out A/C and C/D I can either penalize Bob with 9.1.2 and call a Re-Shoot or I can call 4 mikes 2 proc for FTSA and still 9.1.2 Bob.

 

3. Or before the pitch forks come out amongst the Squad, I just get the RM to sort this out. I really don’t know the intentions of Bob. Is Bob trying to cheat for his buddy? I don’t know, can’t read minds. An assigned RO or a competitor I trust states they saw Bob tape the 2 targets. Now what? If the RO saw it taking place, he should have told Bob to step back and don’t touch the target. Ya, I know, at this point it sounds like I have OCD. But, I need to get this right. Don’t want to screw over the shooter or turn into Bill Burr, “Ok, who did this? Who taped this? Everybody line up and somebody better confess”. Either should I play Sherlock and sort this out to the 9th degree. I watched him engage those targets and it’s a Re-Shoot. How do I prevent cheaters? Maybe tell the other RO’s or someone I trust to watch his buddies, pfff....

 

Before I would call out 4 mikes and 2 FTSA I would naturally call a Re-Shoot, because I watched the shooter engage said targets.

One more thing, “Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.” What does this mean? Really, why would they throw this in and how does it apply to 9.1.3?

 

Ok, I know these are scenarios I made up and am I sure some of you have been there and done that. For me if I can’t determine the score, it’s going to be a Re-Shoot, period. But I will keep an eye on Bob and his buddies best I can. To make sure they are not gaming the Match, which is going to be subjective on my part. Then make sure shooters are treated fairly. Ok, bring the heat, but do it appropriately. Peace!

[RJH]

Best i can give you is, depends. I shoot at several clubs and we are all "Bob" and past the targets and call out the score. We do however generally get the shooter and actual RO if there is anything questionable. This does not work at level 2 matches and some level ones, but many of us shoot together and trust each other.

 

 

At a level 2 that is gonna be a reshoot. I know that you can apply some procedurals, but i have never seen that happen. This is why at a level 2 it is best to score the targets the same way every time and make the squad aware of it on the stage brief. Your final paragraph is how i have always seen this situation handled as a shooter and an ro

Edited February 12, 2019 by RJH

[HCH]

Reshoot

[Lastcat]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

Best i can give you is, depends. I shoot at several clubs and we are all "Bob" and past the targets and call out the score. We do however generally get the shooter and actual RO if there is anything questionable. This does not work at level 2 matches and some level ones, but many of us shoot together and trust each other.

 

 

At a level 2 that is gonna be a reshoot. I know that you can apply some procedurals, but i have never seen that happen. This is why at a level 2 it is best to score the targets the same way every time and make the squad aware of it on the stage brief. Your final paragraph is how i have always seen this situation handled as a shooter and an ro

 

Thanks RJH, agree with you totally, we are all Bob's trying to get 20 shooters through this Match and it's been a long day, we wanna go home. Back scoring helps and I usually know the Squad I am with and are friends. I rather just say, screw it, re-shoot and treat everyone the same. But, I would probable win in life but fail at the RO test if I don't have the correct answers. Cheers!

[Lastcat]

Just now, HCH said:

Reshoot

 

Agree. What about that 2nd par.? “if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer” . Who's following who?

[motosapiens]

good grief, there are like 198374918237 questions in that one post.

 

At local matches, we often have a non-certified person call out the score on a far-away or hard to get to target, in order to save time. If it is not an obvious call, or if there are penalties, the shooter and RO typically go look at it together. It is important that the targets are not taped until the score is recorded, and the person calling out the score waits until the scorekeeper is ready and asks him for the call on that target. The shooter has the right to see the targets, and know that the call is correct, so 'Bob' in the scenario above needs to be told to cool his jets.

 

Regarding paragraph 2, “if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer”. This is talking about the situation where the target has been scored, but after that (following the scoring) one of the shooter's squadmates pasted it before the shooter got a chance to see it, and now the shooter is whining like a spoiled little kid that he should get a reshoot (this happened on the stage I worked at 2012 nationals). The rules say too bad. 

 

Regarding the part about reviewing previous scoresheets, that is there for cases where a target was untaped after the last shooter, so now there are 4 holes in the target, and you can't tell them apart. You can't look back at the last score, and say "well the last guy got A/C on that target, so this guy gets the other ones".  You have to be able to tell which holes are which from looking at the target, for instance by caliber difference, or by the shape of the hole (SWC vs RN, for example, or maybe 2 bullets have the obvious blue residue that certain bullets leave).

 

I would probably resist the urge to dq people for calling out the score of a target. Just tell them that the RO should be the only one calling the scores if you want it that way.

Edited February 12, 2019 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

If you can’t score them and a guy said he pasted them it’s just a reshoot. No need to jump to cheating unless there is suspicion.

 The previous scorecard clause means if I had 2 Alpha on my run and they DON’T paste them they can’t use my score to determine next shooter

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

good grief, there are like 198374918237 questions in that one post.

 

At local matches, we often have a non-certified person call out the score on a far-away or hard to get to target, in order to save time. If it is not an obvious call, or if there are penalties, the shooter and RO typically go look at it together. That is the only situation where I won't bark at someone for taping early. The shooter has the right to see the targets, and know that the call is correct, so 'Bob' in the scenario above needs to be told to cool his jets.

 

Regarding paragraph 2, “if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer”. This is talking about the situation where the target has been scored, but after that (following the scoring) one of the shooter's squadmates pasted it before the shooter got a chance to see it, and now the shooter is whining like a spoiled little kid that he should get a reshoot (this happened on the stage I worked at 2012 nationals). The rules say too bad. 

 

Regarding the part about reviewing previous scoresheets, that is there for cases where a target was untaped after the last shooter, so now there are 4 holes in the target, and you can't tell them apart. You can't look back at the last score, and say "well the last guy got A/C on that target, so this guy gets the other ones".  You have to be able to tell which holes are which from looking at the target, for instance by caliber difference, or by the shape of the hole (SWC vs RN, for example, or maybe 2 bullets have the obvious blue residue that certain bullets leave).

 

I would probably resist the urge to dq people for calling out the score of a target. Just tell them that the RO should be the only one calling the scores if you want it that way.

[Lastcat]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

good grief, there are like 198374918237 questions in that one post.

 

At local matches, we often have a non-certified person call out the score on a far-away or hard to get to target, in order to save time. If it is not an obvious call, or if there are penalties, the shooter and RO typically go look at it together. That is the only situation where I won't bark at someone for taping early. The shooter has the right to see the targets, and know that the call is correct, so 'Bob' in the scenario above needs to be told to cool his jets.

 

Regarding paragraph 2, “if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer”. This is talking about the situation where the target has been scored, but one of the shooter's squadmates pasted it before the shooter got a chance to see it, and now the shooter is whining like a spoiled little kid that he should get a reshoot (this happened on the stage I worked at 2012 nationals). The rules say too bad.

 

Regarding the part about reviewing previous scoresheets, that is there for cases where a target was untaped after the last shooter, so now there are 4 holes in the target, and you can't tell them apart. You can't look back at the last score, and say "well the last guy got A/C on that target, so this guy gets the other ones".  You have to be able to tell which holes are which from looking at the target, for instance by caliber difference, or by the shape of the hole (SWC vs RN, for example, or maybe 2 bullets have the obvious blue residue that certain bullets leave).

 

I would probably resist the urge to dq people for calling out the score of a target. Just tell them that the RO should be the only one calling the scores if you want it that way.

 

Awesome, thanks. Clear as a bell. I told ya I was OCD...lol. Uh oh, here comes the Sarge, I need to brace myself. Ok, I'm ready.

[Lastcat]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

If you can’t score them and a guy said he pasted them it’s just a reshoot. No need to jump to cheating unless there is suspicion.

 The previous scorecard clause means if I had 2 Alpha on my run and they DON’T paste them they can’t use my score to determine next shooter

 

Cool, thanks.

[motosapiens]

And to be fair, at our local matches, shooting with people we know and trust, with nothing important on the line, possibly in crappy conditions where we would rather finish and go drink beer than do unnecessary re-shoots, I wouldn't lose my mind if someone *occasionally* taped a target early but remembered the score with confidence. It can sometimes be confusing when you switch off RO's and not everyone scores the stage in the same order. Pretty much everyone here is either certified as RO or experienced enough to fill in competently, so if they are sure of the call, and the shooter is ok with it, I wouldn't freak out...... unless it happened multiple times....

[Lastcat]

Ok, I'm good to go. Thanks for everyone's help. I am just preparing for the test. They have a way of twisting the question around where the statements seems true, but actually false. I hope to get that 85%. All in all, stick to rules and make it a Fun match.

[Lastcat]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

And to be fair, at our local matches, shooting with people we know and trust, with nothing important on the line, possibly in crappy conditions where we would rather finish and go drink beer than do unnecessary re-shoots, I wouldn't lose my mind if someone *occasionally* taped a target early but remembered the score with confidence. It can sometimes be confusing when you switch off RO's and not everyone scores the stage in the same order. Pretty much everyone here is either certified as RO or experienced enough to fill in competently, so if they are sure of the call, and the shooter is ok with it, I wouldn't freak out...... unless it happened multiple times....

 

Right. When a RO switches, sometimes he scores left to right, where the previous RO scored right to left. We communicate back and forth and work together as a squad. Just trying to get the hard facts to pass this test. Thanks for the help.

[motosapiens]

You know they don't give you the test until *after* they spend 2 days teaching you and discussing the rules, right? You don't need to worry about knowing everything already.   

[Lastcat]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

You know they don't give you the test until *after* they spend 2 days teaching you and discussing the rules, right? You don't need to worry about knowing everything already.   

 

No I didn't. Just want to nail that 85%, so I don't have to repeat.

[HCH]

31 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

And to be fair, at our local matches, shooting with people we know and trust, with nothing important on the line, possibly in crappy conditions where we would rather finish and go drink beer than do unnecessary re-shoots, I wouldn't lose my mind if someone *occasionally* taped a target early but remembered the score with confidence. It can sometimes be confusing when you switch off RO's and not everyone scores the stage in the same order. Pretty much everyone here is either certified as RO or experienced enough to fill in competently, so if they are sure of the call, and the shooter is ok with it, I wouldn't freak out...... unless it happened multiple times....

 

I agree with all of this.

[Southpaw]

It's an open book test. If you can't pass it then you probably shouldn't be trusted to own a firearm...

[Lastcat]

7 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

It's an open book test. If you can't pass it then you probably shouldn't be trusted to own a firearm...

 

It was not mentioned as an open book test. Not cool bro.

[phoenixsomd]

A key theme in all the above is communication... even at a level I match, making sure everyone understands how things will be scored saves a lot of conflicts.

 

For example: Having the person inputting scores enter them for targets the shooter has already engaged as they and the RO running the timer, continue moving through the stage can frequently save time. 

 

Everyone just needs to know how things are going to work.  

[motosapiens]

16 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

It was not mentioned as an open book test. Not cool bro.

 

it's still not easy, and requires careful reading and thought for many of the questions. Open book makes sense to me because you're going to need to look up rules at a match too. Nobody memorizes *all* this stuff. I've seen Troy and other RM's looking through their rulebook at almost every major match.

[Southpaw]

15 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

It was not mentioned as an open book test. Not cool bro.

 

You really don't need to worry about the test. You'll go through the class where they cover all the important stuff over 2 days. Then you take test home at the end and email it to instructor whenever you get around to doing it. 

[Poppa Bear]

One of the reasons the test is open book is because many issues have 3 or more rules that deal with that question.  One might be the overall rule, a second exemptions, a third the division specific rules.  So based on what the question is that needs to be answered you need to site the correct rule.

[WaJim]

39 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

You really don't need to worry about the test. You'll go through the class where they cover all the important stuff over 2 days. Then you take test home at the end and email it to instructor whenever you get around to doing it. 

Not any more....

 

The test is given on line. After you are finished you submit the test to AWSA directly.

 

In 2 seconds you get your score after you hit Submit.

 

I took mine Jan 21st 2019.

[CHA-LEE]

The bulk of this is avoided by using a logical and consistent method of scoring the stage that puts the priority of getting resetters to work sooner over making it easier for the RO's. If I am working a stage that has a straight down range shooting area and the shooter starts in the back of the bay and ends in the front of the bay, I will clear the shooter & range, then physically walk back up range to the first targets shot and score the targets as I move down range. Basically following the same basic path the shooter took while shooting the stage. This gets the resetters to work sooner because they don't have to wait for me to score the up range targets last. Does it add a little more time to the scoring process because I have to walk back up range? Sure. But its far less confusing for the resetters and it keeps them from having to walk all the way down range before they can even start resetting.

 

What is even more important is scoring the targets in the exact same path and pattern regardless of where the shooter finishes. This is a very common mistake I see at locals and even major matches. The RO's switch up the path or pattern of scoring the targets depending on where the shooter finishes. This dramatically increases the risk of prematurely taped targets because the squad gets used to a consistent path or pattern of scoring and resetting then a left handed shooter runs the stage with a plan that is completely opposite of everyone else.

 

Committing to perform these two basic stage management processes up front dramatically reduces the chance of inconsistent events happening while running the stage.

[Joe4d]

the scoring section of the rules pretty much has a common theme, whether its a timer, not enough holes, too many holes, or anything else. You "KNOW" the time and score,, so write it down, or you dont... then its a reshoot. Thats the RO knowing, not the shooter. Shooter isnt guaranteed a look at the targets.
In practice,,, you knowing is for you to decide.  Personally I see it as respect for the person with the timer, to wait for them to score target.  At local level RO's tend to be handed off for different shooters. But on that run, the man with the timer is the man.. Id tell BOB, if he wants to score targets he can take the timer,,, otherwise ?