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jskd82

Draw, first shot speed

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Posted (edited)

I've been working on drawing and getting off a shot as fast as I can while still trying to hit the target.... I notice that I don't really pick up my sights and it's more of instinctual aiming if I try to break a shot under 1.30 seconds.  It takes me anywhere from 1.30-1.60 to get a sight picture and break a fairly accurate shot (A Zone).  Is the first shot normally just a point and shoot without really acquiring sights if you are trying to go for a 1 second draw and .20 first shot? 

Edited by jskd82

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Have you taken a class from anyone yet? I would suggest starting there.

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I'm having the same issue. I have taken a couple of formal classes. Anything under 1.5 sec and half the time I'm hitting C zone shots at 10 yards. Now... I am not quite sure if it's a bad sight picture or if it's my trigger break is slop.

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I'm happy using my sights and getting a good hit at 10-12 yards

in 1.25 seconds    :)

 

BTW, you really need to fire a 2nd shot also, or you can wing a fast first

shot and then have to readjust your grip for the 2nd shot.

 

To be fair, you have to acquire a solid grip first, then fire the 1st

shot and still be able to fire a good solid 2nd shot Without having

to adjust your grip.     Or, you didn't fire the first shot fairly.     :) 

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There's a lot of factors, so make sure your frame of reference reflect your gear and game. That is, from what start position? What kind of holster? For example, I'd say 100% a zone hits at 10 yards using the sights in 1.5 seconds from surrender position out of a non race holster is pretty good. 

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You have to react fast (to the beginning of the beep), you have to move your hands fast (and have the rest of your body, particularly shoulders, already in the correct final position), you have to move the gun in the most efficient way (no overshooting, bowling or fishing), you have to bring the gun up to your eye level already aligned with the target and you have to have your trigger prepped as the gun reaches its final position.

 

The only difference between drawing on the easy and hard target should be the amount of time it takes for the final sight picture to stabilize enough to become "acceptable." The rest of the movement should be always at the same top speed. If your selected distance is hard for you, you're likely slowing down for no reason. Bring the targets closer and work on speed. 

 

Also, no, you don't "point shoot." If you brought the gun up to the eye level, you should be seeing sights even if the sight picture is not yet acceptable. You should see the sights not yet aligned, but you should see them, you should recognize them and you should be conscious of the alignment as soon as they are in your peripheral vision. The delay should be for settling down sights that you can see, not waiting for the sights to appear in your field of view, then working on getting them aligned.

 

On close targets, you see the sights, you see the rear notch, you see the front in the vicinity of the notch, you see that everything behind the notch and the front sight is "brown paper" for miles around it, you press the trigger. No need to wait for additional alignment when it's all brown behind the sights. If you're shooting steel, it's similar concept, just everything has to be on the steel. Of course, you have to know what level of misalignment is acceptable at what distance and you have to work on your misaligned sights being relatively consistent (not too far off) towards the end of motion. 

 

I am a B shooter so take it with a grain of salt. My draws on 7 yard targets are .85 - .95, and at around 1.0 on 10 yard steel in the shape of the A zone. I haven't measured my "pure speed" on closer targets (might do it next time out). 

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It is always good to have a fast draw, however, in competition, the amount of times you draw the gun with a fast draw is not near as important as working on moving into a shooting positions with the gun held high and acquiring the first visible target,  working on good/fast transitions, and conducting a fast reload (if needed) when you are no further than one step beyond the previous shooting position...….now if you have a good fast draw that allows a good consistent grip each time you draw......you will be far ahead of most shooters.....!

 

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It is always good to have a fast draw, however, in competition, the amount of times you draw the gun with a fast draw is not near as important as working on moving into a shooting positions with the gun held high and acquiring the first visible target,  working on good/fast transitions, and conducting a fast reload (if needed) when you are no further than one step beyond the previous shooting position...….now if you have a good fast draw that allows a good consistent grip each time you draw......you will be far ahead of most shooters.....!
 
This was my thought so glad to hear someone confirm. My first match is at the end of this month and although I have been practicing my draw, I'm trying not to get too hung up on my speed or lack there of. I figure I am only drawing once per stage and training everything else that goes on in the stage will pay off more than spending that time on my draw.

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Fast draw is about efficiency. If you're slow because you don't move fast, you will be slow on the rest of the stage because, well, you don't move fast. 

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In order to be fast and accurate, you need to work on accurate first. Forget speed for now. Just practice getting the gun between your eyes and the target smoothly, with the sights aligned on the target. You need to start slowly and really focus on the movement and and where the gun "WANTS" to point. If the gun doesn't WANT to line up on the target without adjustments, you need to take a good hard look at your grip. You can do all of this in dry fire any time you have free time. Put a 1" target paster on a wall. stand back 15 ft and practice drawing the gun to that spot. Focus on the dot and bring the sights to your line of sight straight. The more you practice that, the easier it will be to do it faster. In the end you'll be doing it dead on without even trying. THAT is when you'll get fast.

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In order to be fast and accurate, you need to work on accurate first. Forget speed for now. Just practice getting the gun between your eyes and the target smoothly, with the sights aligned on the target. You need to start slowly and really focus on the movement and and where the gun "WANTS" to point. If the gun doesn't WANT to line up on the target without adjustments, you need to take a good hard look at your grip. You can do all of this in dry fire any time you have free time. Put a 1" target paster on a wall. stand back 15 ft and practice drawing the gun to that spot. Focus on the dot and bring the sights to your line of sight straight. The more you practice that, the easier it will be to do it faster. In the end you'll be doing it dead on without even trying. THAT is when you'll get fast.
OK. So here's the dilemma I have. I have done exactly the dry fire drill you mention quite a lot. If I am using terminology correctly, my goal is to develop an index with my draw. Basically, muscle memory so that I can draw, bring the gun up to my line of sight and have an acceptable sight picture with little to no adjustment needed. Consistently.

I can do this pretty damn well with my CZ P-01. But with my SP-01, I can't. What I am finding is that with the latter, my sight picture is left of the target often. My rear sight is fine. It's that the muzzle is pointing left. I then need to adjust which takes time.

When analyzing my draw with both pistols, the difference is grip. With the P-01, I get a nice solid, full grip of it everytime. With the SP-01, I don't. The P-01 has always felt perfect in my hand. My SP-01 is nice but it doesn't feel as "natural". I think it's a combination of the size of the grip and the weight but I'm a better shooter with it.

So this seems like an easy fix... run with the P-01. But am I putting myself at a disadvantage running a compact in Production where it seems the majority run full size pistols?

Logically, I think since I'm new I should run the P-01 since I shoot that better and I'm going to be at the bottom of the score card no matter what I choose. My real goal at this point is to be safe and enjoy myself.

What do you guys think about me running with the P-01?

Do you have any insights as to why I struggle with the SP-01 and not the P-01?

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You should be able to adjust your grip to different guns, but it's not quite instantaneous. That's why people do a lot of dry fire practice before switching divisions.

 

If you feel comfortable (at the moment) with P01, shoot P01 - you can only have 10 rounds anyways and if you can draw, reload and shoot it fast, you are good to go. You will likely notice the difference when you start practicing follow up shots on a timer. Just remember that even if you are faster with P01, it might be because you haven't practiced enough with SP01, not because P01 better suits you. Either way, it will be your call to make and the only way to make it is to measure performance with a timer. 

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1 hour ago, anonymouscuban said:

When analyzing my draw with both pistols, the difference is grip. With the P-01, I get a nice solid, full grip of it every time. With the SP-01, I don't. The P-01 has always felt perfect in my hand. My SP-01 is nice but it doesn't feel as "natural". I think it's a combination of the size of the grip and the weight but I'm a better shooter with it.


 

That's your answer. Yes it sounds simple. That's because it is. If you have a pistol you shoot well with, shoot it. Use that as a base reference and see if you can improve on it. If you want to keep the SP-01 that's fine but leave it as range fun gun. The P-01 feels natural to you, that for me has always been the key. If it doesn't feel right out of the box, you're going to have a hell of a time making it feel right. 1911s have always felt "right" to me and index very well. But I built 9 of them before I found an absolutely perfect fit.

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That's your answer. Yes it sounds simple. That's because it is. If you have a pistol you shoot well with, shoot it. Use that as a base reference and see if you can improve on it. If you want to keep the SP-01 that's fine but leave it as range fun gun. The P-01 feels natural to you, that for me has always been the key. If it doesn't feel right out of the box, you're going to have a hell of a time making it feel right. 1911s have always felt "right" to me and index very well. But I built 9 of them before I found an absolutely perfect fit.
Thanks for the input. It's funny because the SP-01 came first. And I thought it was an amazing pistol. Then a year later, while shopping for an AR at my LGS, I picked up the P-01. Immediately, it was love at first touch. LOL. It fit my hand like a glove right off the shelf. I ended up buying the AR and the P-01.

I am going to run with the P-01 for my first match. See how it goes. I will continue to practice with the SP-01 as well to see if I can make it work. I may try some other grips as well. I have the stock grips on it now. I tried some aluminium thin grips but those felt worse. We shall see.

Like I said, I'm looking to have fun with USPSA. Maybe that's what it will be for me. If it turns into more, with time and experience I am sure i will find what works best. I'm over thinking everything, it seems, at this point in time.

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4 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

Thanks for the input. It's funny because the SP-01 came first. And I thought it was an amazing pistol. Then a year later, while shopping for an AR at my LGS, I picked up the P-01. Immediately, it was love at first touch. LOL. It fit my hand like a glove right off the shelf. I ended up buying the AR and the P-01.

I am going to run with the P-01 for my first match. See how it goes. I will continue to practice with the SP-01 as well to see if I can make it work. I may try some other grips as well. I have the stock grips on it now. I tried some aluminium thin grips but those felt worse. We shall see.

Like I said, I'm looking to have fun with USPSA. Maybe that's what it will be for me. If it turns into more, with time and experience I am sure i will find what works best. I'm over thinking everything, it seems, at this point in time.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

 

No worries. Just keep in mind that the more you complicate your grip, the harder it is to be consistent. Start with something that feels good and build on that. The P-01 being a compact version of the CZ75, You might give some of the full size pistols a try, the feel should be very close to the same with more options for competition.  But overall, stick with that platform and see how far it takes you.

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On 1/3/2019 at 6:37 PM, jskd82 said:

the target...

distance? target? gun? holster?

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@anonymouscuban one nice thing about running the P01 is you can run it with SP01 mags since they are compatible with the P01. They will stick out from the grip a bit, giving you the feel of reloading a magazine with an extension but while still fitting in the Production box. 

 

Not my picture but this will give you an idea. Those are the 18 round SP01 mags that come from the factory, which might not fit in the box depending on what sights you have, but the Mec Gar 17 rounders should fit anything (they fit even with my suppressor ready model SP01)

 

image1179_1.thumb.jpg.fc41db2bdc1abcb819f62c6f6753480d.jpg

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[mention=66421]anonymouscuban[/mention] one nice thing about running the P01 is you can run it with SP01 mags since they are compatible with the P01. They will stick out from the grip a bit, giving you the feel of reloading a magazine with an extension but while still fitting in the Production box. 
 
Not my picture but this will give you an idea. Those are the 18 round SP01 mags that come from the factory, which might not fit in the box depending on what sights you have, but the Mec Gar 17 rounders should fit anything (they fit even with my suppressor ready model SP01)
 
image1179_1.thumb.jpg.fc41db2bdc1abcb819f62c6f6753480d.jpg
I have the mecgar mags for my SP-01 and ran them in my P-01 before I got extra compact mags. Didn't really consider the advantage they give since they extend out beyond the mag well.

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2 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

I have the mecgar mags for my SP-01 and ran them in my P-01 before I got extra compact mags. Didn't really consider the advantage they give since they extend out beyond the mag well.

 

It's a nice little perk to offset the smaller/lighter pistol. I'm trying to track down a P-01 for appendix carry and will likely run it in Limited minor for practice with the stock 14 rounder to start and the 17 rounders from there since that's what I'd carry as backup anyways. 

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dry fire, dry fire and more dry fire...practice and speed will come.

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On 1/6/2019 at 3:42 PM, anonymouscuban said:

Thanks for the input. It's funny because the SP-01 came first. And I thought it was an amazing pistol. Then a year later, while shopping for an AR at my LGS, I picked up the P-01. Immediately, it was love at first touch. LOL. It fit my hand like a glove right off the shelf. I ended up buying the AR and the P-01.

I am going to run with the P-01 for my first match. See how it goes. I will continue to practice with the SP-01 as well to see if I can make it work. I may try some other grips as well. I have the stock grips on it now. I tried some aluminium thin grips but those felt worse. We shall see.

Like I said, I'm looking to have fun with USPSA. Maybe that's what it will be for me. If it turns into more, with time and experience I am sure i will find what works best. I'm over thinking everything, it seems, at this point in time.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

Stick with the P-01.  It fits your hand and obviously has a good "natural point of aim" for you.  Put the SP-01 in the safe until you've mastered the P-01.  Dry fire A LOT like Dranoel suggested, until the gun just automatically comes up on target.  But, having said that, don't get too hung up on your draw... in reality it's a fairly small part of your total time in a stage/match.  Accurate double taps and even more importantly, fast target transitions are the key to good scores!

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On 1/3/2019 at 7:51 PM, anonymouscuban said:

I'm having the same issue. I have taken a couple of formal classes. Anything under 1.5 sec and half the time I'm hitting C zone shots at 10 yards. Now... I am not quite sure if it's a bad sight picture or if it's my trigger break is slop.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

 

Why don't you start closer to the targets, like 5 yards, and start increasing the speed, then gradually work your way back to 10-12 yards.  Keep dry firing like crazy...practice will payoff for sure.

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Why don't you start closer to the targets, like 5 yards, and start increasing the speed, then gradually work your way back to 10-12 yards.  Keep dry firing like crazy...practice will payoff for sure.
Thanks for tip. I'm gonna move closer for sure. I'm also going to slow it down to a 2 second par time. Then gradually decrease the par time by one second when I can get consistent hits at each par time.

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8 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

Thanks for tip. I'm gonna move closer for sure. I'm also going to slow it down to a 2 second par time. Then gradually decrease the par time by one second when I can get consistent hits at each par time.

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Thats what i tried to do as well...speed will definitely come...dry firing consistently will help immensely, mixed with live-fire.  

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