6.5" 625 Enhanced Revolver

[hopalong]

All this debate on the 625-E makes my head hurt, I think I'll go shoot my 800 dollar STI !!!!

When and If it shows up then I'll make my decision, until then it is only speculation.

HOP

[Carmoney]

On a psychological level, if my pricey revolver made you doubt your equipment or competitiveness, even if only for a split second, then I've gained an advantage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randy, I gotta tell ya brother, this mentality may be present in other IPSC divisions and perhaps other shooting disciplines, but it is just not an issue in the upper levels of IPSC revo. Most of us don't ever bother to look at each other's guns, because they're all pretty much interchangeable. Most of us wouldn't feel quite right about winning if we thought the other guy had "inferior" equipment.

Also, please keep in mind that many of us gravitated to this division because the whole concept of the "equipment race" really turns us off. Look--even good-natured ol' Hopalong is starting to get grumpy with this whole topic!

Mike

[underlug]

The reason I was interested in ICORE, initially, was that I wanted a revolver friendly venue and static equipment. I think the genie has been out of the bottle re revolvers for a while. You just go with the inevitable flow

[Randy Lee]

Sorry HOP,

Didn't mean to make your brain hurt.

Mike,

You are right about the revolver shooters- they pretty much are the best lot to hang around. I shoot mostly steel and ICORE because I like the people. I like the challenge of operating a gun in which the only limitation to how fast I can go is "me". The revolver is capable of firing faster than a semi auto, so really, I am the only hindrance.

It seems that the major issue is not the technological arms race, but the price which has many up in arms. The price of this project revolver is generated by the manufacturer. I have no say in the matter.

My original question about why you modify your revolver at all still stands. It's about advantage, doing things to your gun so that specific operations or tasks are made easier.

You spend your time doing your own trigger work, chamfering the cylinder, skeletonizing the hammer. You get the satisfaction of knowing you did the work yourself. Rather than invest money, you invest time.

Some do not have the time, patience or skills to do these operations, so they send it to their local pistolmith.

Some would rather buy a gun that is already set up and tuned because they don't want to wait. They would rather invest the money for immediate advantage.

I use the best equipment I can afford and I suspect you do as well. That equipment costs more than the basic Uncle Mikes rig, but we gladly pay for our competition holster and belt rigs because again, there is an advantage.

Along with wanting to create a revolver suited for competition, I had also hoped that Taurus and Ruger would want to look at our sport and improve their products.

Both of these manufacturers are fully capable of creating a competition revolver to compete with Smith and perhaps at a lesser cost. Competition in the market wouldn't be such a bad thing here.

For me, it's about making a better quality revolver. All the research and data I've collected has been volunteered to Smith. I'm not getting paid for any of it. I just want to hold a gun that will do exactly what I expect it to do.

Randy

[Carmoney]

I use the best equipment I can afford and I suspect you do as well. That equipment costs more than the basic Uncle Mikes rig, but we gladly pay for our competition holster and belt rigs because again, there is an advantage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randy, wouldn't you know it?-- I use an Uncle Mike's belt holster for my other handgun passion--single-stack 1911 competition!!

Maybe I need to face the fact that I'm just a big CHEAPO!

Mike

[Randy Lee]

That's okay Mike,

I got into doing pistolsmithing because I couldn't afford to pay someone to build me a gun.

We're not cheap, we're THRIFTY!

Hope you are enjoying your holiday weekend,

Randy

[hopalong]

Randy, you got some of it correct......but

Carmoney is CHEAP !!!!

practice up MIKE, I hear D. Carden will be on the top of the waiting list for the UBER Revolver !!!!!

That will make him the 2nd GM in Revolver HISTORY !!!!!

HOP

[Randy Lee]

HOP,

Are you instigating things?

The Ti cylinder is fitted to the 625 5"(made it back from Ecuador). I'll have it for show at the Steel Challenge. It won't have the new barrel, but it will give people to at least feel the difference in the action in comparison to a stock 5"

BTW, I'll have the steel cylinder from the gun there as well. It's only had about 2500 rounds thru it(2 boxes of white box and the remainder was what Lisa shot thru it in preparation for and completion of the World Shoot). You can see and feel the metal starting to deform on the cylinder stop slots.

Randy(the non instigator)

[10mmdave]

BTW, I'll have the steel cylinder from the gun there as well. It's only had about 2500 rounds thru it(2 boxes of white box and the remainder was what Lisa shot thru it in preparation for and completion of the World Shoot). You can see and feel the metal starting to deform on the cylinder stop slots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randy, you have me worried now, I just bought a 625 and I'm wondering about

this "induction hardening" deal Hell I'l have 2500 dry firings thru it before

I even get to the range !

Is this a process someone can search out and have done or do you need to have

a batch of parts to be done to make it worth while ??

Just wondering

[Bill Nesbitt]

Are the stainless cylinders more prone to the cylinder slots deforming than blued guns? My 2 year old 686x6 38 super is more deformed than my 20 year old 25-2. My well used model 10 is less deformed than either.

Why not just talk S&W into building some blued 25-2s if that is the case. Be sure they build some 4 inch guns for those of us that still shoot IDPA.

Bill Nesbitt

[Carmoney]

What the hell are you west-coast guys (and Lisa) doing to these things to make them deform so badly??

I have a bunch of stainless Smiths and have had none of this problem....at least none worth worrying about. They all peen a little at first, then they get work-hardened and don't change much after that.

Sure this isn't much ado about nothing?

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'm glad to hear Mike Carmoney has a Ransom rest, it widens the base of knowledge. My experience is with accuracy testing in my Ransom rest. I can bolt any of half a dozen 1911s I have in the safe in the rest, shoot some settling groups, and then count on group after group of very small size. (1" to under 2" at worst.) I can change ammo, and once the bore is reconditioned, expect group after small group.

No .45 ACP wheelgun I've ever shot has approached either the small group size nor the consistency.

I checked my own 25-2 before going to Ecuador. With factory ball (any brand, even Match) just under 4" at 25 yards. My specially-tuned loads (which mostly didn't make it to Ecuador) runs 2.5" to 3" I even tried a couple batches of factory fmj wadcutter in .45 and .45 AR: 3".

I can bolt my 29 or my 629 in the rest and get one-hole groups with lead 240s at full power.

I take a much more jaundiced view of accuracy than most. To me, accuracy is not the best group that gun ever shot, it is what you can expect all the time. My 25-2 is an all the time 3" gun. I want more, and if the 625E delivers, I'm in.

[MBaneACP]

Lisa F.'s uncanny ability to deliver slashing verbal commentary — which is exactly why we occasionally hire her to help us out at SHOOTING GALLERY! — can deform even stainless steel. Ask her sometimes what her *previous* career was...

mb

(HINT: it has to do with dead bodies, eyeballs and sharp spoons...)

[Randy Lee]

What the hell are you west-coast guys (and Lisa) doing to these things to make them deform so badly?? 

I have a bunch of stainless Smiths and have had none of this problem....at least none worth worrying about.  They all peen a little at first, then they get work-hardened and don't change much after that. 

Sure this isn't much ado about nothing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It may be that Smith sends the softer and "safer" guns for us shrub huggin' Kalifornians.

I suspect Smith is using their particular blend of stainless not only for liability, but cost. The alloy mix they use is hi carbon, but is easier to machine- this translates into more units produced before tool change. The carbon steel they use in the blued revolvers is definitely more resistant to force related deformation.

I doubt Smith will go back to carbon steel as the handling and metal finishing adds another few steps and caustic salts are always an EPA issue.

Dave,

We need to find out the type of steel smith is using for their cylinders. My guess is that it is 410 stainless, but I don't know for sure. Someone will need to talk to a metallurgist about which materials can be effectively induction hardened. Jerry has talked to the guys at Smith about the process, but not with any success.

Hard chroming, tenifer or melanite finishing the cylinders will slow the wear considerably.

Mike,

For some the peening will not be an issue. Heat treatment is done within a range of acceptable hardness so some cylinders may be sent out on the softer side of the spectrum. Gun handling practices, volume of fire etc. can all have an affect on wear.

Over the last four years, I would have to guess that I have worked on at least 200 Smith revolvers used for competition(conservative#). Numerically speaking, the ones that came in for cylinder skipping or excessive damage to the c-stop slots was less that 5%. It's not a big deal unless you are one of the unlucky 5%, especially on match day.

Since this topic was posted, I've had contacts from Australia and europe regarding cylinder damage and wear issues. Smith must see this as an insignificant number of recurrences otherwise they would have changed their design/material/process. Competition revolver shooters are only a small percentage of their business and the fact that our guns wear out faster isn't a big deal to their financial well-being.

If only they would consider and incorporate at least some of what the competition revolver shooters are saying.

[Keith]

I use the best equipment I can afford and I suspect you do as well. That equipment costs more than the basic Uncle Mikes rig, but we gladly pay for our competition holster and belt rigs because again, there is an advantage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randy, wouldn't you know it?-- I use an Uncle Mike's belt holster for my other handgun passion--single-stack 1911 competition!!

Maybe I need to face the fact that I'm just a big CHEAPO!

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I can just drift this thread for a second,

Mike, are you shooting the single stack match down in Osceola next month? I'm still thinking about it. I think I remember how to work a gun with a safety on it anyway.

Ok. Back to the regular scheduled wheelgun talk.

Personally, my mind is not made up one way or the other on the new revolver. I do need another .45 wheelgun. Either as a primary or a backup gun for these larger matches. Just not sure I need to spend that much money. The only reason I have a PC 625 is that I bought it used for a decent price. I do like it, though.

Keith

[10mmdave]

I wonder if the Ruger folks are keeping tabs on us

Shorten that trigger pull....

maybe redesign that cyinder latch .....

lighten up the frame a little ......

Who says S&W gets all the fun

[10mmdave]

What the hell are you west-coast guys (and Lisa) doing to these things to make them deform so badly?? 

I have a bunch of stainless Smiths and have had none of this problem....at least none worth worrying about.  They all peen a little at first, then they get work-hardened and don't change much after that. 

Sure this isn't much ado about nothing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point Carmoney, maybe I'm worring about nothing.

my 10mm pin revo has really beat up notches (well to me anyway) but it

has never skipped a cylinder.

I do agree the blued guns cyl notches hold up better, but the bolt stop drag line

looks so bad !

Now I wish I waited for a 25-2....damn auctions

Hey Randy ?? is it me or are 45 cyl notches different than the 610's ?

Oh, and I'm a eastcoast guy.

[Randy Lee]

Good point Carmoney, maybe I'm worring about nothing.

my 10mm pin revo has really beat up notches (well to me anyway) but it

has never skipped a cylinder.

I do agree the blued guns cyl notches hold up better, but the bolt stop drag line

looks so bad !

Now I wish I waited for a 25-2....damn auctions

Hey Randy ?? is it me or are 45 cyl notches different than the 610's ?

Oh, and I'm a eastcoast guy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear east coast guy,

My experience is that the unfluted cylinders like the 610, 686 super and some of the 1st gen. 627 really get beat up due to the added mass.

I've asked the Performance Center to deepen the entry cuts on the stop notches by .002 so that the c-stop has a chance to get deeper into the slot(more surface area to stop the cylinder rotation).

If the cylinder yoke is not in alignment, and the c-stop window/ cylinder stop slot

locations are on the edge of spec, the c-stop won't raise high enough and on some guns, only get to 40% of the depth. Eventually alignment of charge hole to bore goes south, the c-stop slot impact shoulder and edge of the c-stop begin to round and skipping occurs. This is only in the worst case scenario. I recently sent a 627 back to the east coast after correcting something like this.

[Keith]

Randy,

Am I going to run into any problems with my PC 625 with the unfluted cylinder? I'm guessing there has been 12,000 to 15,000 rounds through this gun. No problems so far.

Just curious.

Keith

[D.carden]

Randy,

I'm not an engineer but consider my self to be " mechanically inclined".

The re-design, even slight, of the cylider stop seems to me that length should be added to it rather than depth.

Looking at my cyl notches the peening is more on the contact edge rather than in the bottom of it.

My 625 has some where near 40,000 rnds and 100's of thousands of dry fire cycles. ( i'm not kidding either !! )

It's got a lot of life left.

Only internal parts have been replaced mostly due to experimentation.

I cant see the initial "impact" going that deep. it would require a much heavier stop spring to drop it in the notch faster. I know .002" isn't much but you got to consider vertical travel time also.

A longer/shorter stop with less vert travel might be an option too !!

Just a thought !!!

Dan......( i'm still in this )

[Randy Lee]

Keith,

You may not experience any problems. It sounds like you've already had a pretty good service life. Mike Carmoney is right about the peening not causing any catastrophic failures on most guns. But as competitive shooters, we will see the most common failures and weak points of the gun. If or when you experience cylinder skip or accuracy problems attributed to enlarged or peened slots, that's when I'd call it an issue. There's just a higher chance that these problems will arise in heavy unfluted cylinders running fast.

Smith has a trigger pull test fixture that they use for failure analysis. It makes sense- see how many trigger cycles it takes to break a gun. They tell me that with the factory settings on trigger pull weight, the Hammer and trigger pins are what break first. The fly in the ointment for us is that the factory test parameters are vastly different than what our guns are experiencing.

Our trigger cycles are considerably faster than what they are testing. Our trigger pulls are also lighter than factory. These changes alone alter the dynamic loads and stresses placed upon parts.

In all honesty, I hope that your gun will last another 75,000 rounds.

Randy

[R112mercer]

Pat;

Maybe I just got lucky with my 625, but with my old target load (Montana's 185 gr JHP over 4.0 grains of Clays, very soft) my gun holds about an inch to two inches at 25 yards. My brother-in-law has a 4" 625 that I foolishly let him buy off of Herb Beck (should've bought it myself) that shoots X's all day long with 185 gr. LSWC loads, standing offhand. I know a bunch of guys that used 625's as PPC guns, either in the 1500 or Service (where my brother-in-law uses his) with great success. The X on the B-27 is two inches wide by three inches tall, and damned hard to hit at 50 yards. My experience with ball ammo is that you really have to get that bullet moving for it to stabilize properly. My IPSC load only holds about 3" at 25 yards. In the Hardball match in Bullseye you have to use factory loads, and the recoil can be hard to deal with, but the Bullseye guys have found that if you try and download the FMJ bullets accuracy goes to crap. JHP's tend to stabilize better because most of their mass is towards the middle of the bullet.

[Carmoney]

Drift mode: Keith--yep, we're signed up for the Single Stack match. Come on down! Our first one last year was a big success, overall the match looked quite a bit like our Iowa Sectional this year (the range facilities limit us somewhat), there's a different match director this time so it might take on a little different flavor. I know it's not Revo, but it's "old school" (as Hopalong would say). I really like single-stack matches.

Anybody else who's tuned in and interested in shooting the Iowa Single Stack--sign up fast, I think it will fill up. Feel free to list me on the squad request line if you're so inclined. Here's the info and entry form:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IOWA SINGLE STACK MATCH II

There will be a traditional Single Stack match at the ‘Clarke County Rifle and Pistol club’ in Osceola Iowa.

OCT 1st full day of shooting

*Sept 30th ½ day of shooting

*[shoot entire match in ½ day starting Friday at noon]

Shooters meeting at 7:30 am

We do not have a cool acronym but one smart ass did think this up.

Southern Iowa Single Stack invitational Shoot

SISSIS

(Pronounced sissy's)

10 stages 30$

Estimated 180 rnds

Rules :

1911 model Single Stack firearms.

[No wide bodies]

Barrel bushing required.

Iron sights.

8 round limit in mags.

Exceptions: 9mm/38sup are scored minor, and have a 9 rnd mag limit.

Standard factory length magazines only. No extended magazines allowed. Magazine base pads may be fitted to standard length magazine.

Holster/Mags will be worn behind the hip.

Class is decided where you finish.

[Lewis Classification ]

Plaque only match for class winners.

Match Director is Jim Snyder

Direct all questions to:

snyderaust@msn.com

Iowa Single Stack Match Entry

October 1st 2005

Email address: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

[Check your email carefully]

First Name: ____________

Last Name: _________________________________

Address: ____________________

City: _______________________

State: ________

Zip: _____________

Telephone : _ _ _ - _ _ _ - _ _ _ _

Squad requests : ___________________________

Day : Fri 1/2 day Sat Full day

Please send entry and fee of 30$

To:

CCRPC/OOPS

P.O. Box 8337

Des Moines, IA 50301

Make Checks payable to O.O.P.S

Single Stack 1911 Firearms only. Barrel bushing required.

Standard Factory magazines, no extended mags. Base pads may be fitted to standard factory mags

Circle one: Major / Minor

Exceptions: 9mm/38sup are scored minor, and have a 9 rnd mag limit.

[Middle Man]

In order to cut through the clutter of this monster thread, I have put up a plain ol poll...so go vote!

[Squibby]

Be careful Mr. Bane...don't be give'n all my professional secrets away . Wow, good thing I have a boyfriend already , well maybe not for long after this thread. Just a note, not all eviscerations require sharp objects and if you think I'm tough on revolvers...

I know...I can't help myself using the silly smilie thingy.