6.5" 625 Enhanced Revolver

[Middle Man]

At least it's an interesting discussion.

Honestly, $1500 is a high number, more like the suggested retail. I don't know how many of you actually look at the suggested retail on a Smith & Wesson revolver versus what you'll actually pay, but I'll wager there to be a coulple of C notes worth of difference. Furthermore, take the common Limited Edge .40 with a suggested sticker at $1875 from the factory. Now check around at what they're actually sold for by dealers...$1689. Just like the automobile business, hardly anything is sold at the sticker price.

[MBaneACP]

As always, interesting stuff. I started playing around with revolvers because I *like* revolvers, especially Smith & Wessons. I have a bunch of them; I halfway collect weird N-frames and the occasional .44 Special (and can even hold my own on John Taffin's sixgunner.com forums!). I got *bored* with "raceguns." Yeah, you can shoot 'em fast and they're good for guys like me whose eyes are HEADED SOUTH (it's coming for you, Randy! Really! Well, in a couple of decades...), but it's hose hose hose so what.

I had a fascinating discussion with my good friend Dave Thomas at the NRA Show this year...he said the problem with USPSA from a media perspective is that there were only a handful of people who *could* win on any given day. I said, from my perspective, the problem is with the *sport* itself, which has incrementally evolved in such a way that only a few people can win because, indeed, the sport is *built* around the way those people shoot. And the guns they shoot.

If I can ever get The Outdooor Channel World Cup off the ground — and the powers that be *love* the idea! — you're going to see a REALLY DIFFERENT BEAST, because I have no vested interest in building a sport only half-a-dozen of my friends have a chance to win.

And yes, I will support an East Coast revolver only match with guaranteed video coverage!

mb

[Bubber]

$1500.00 It looks sorta big huh? But what does a Race Revo cost. I have had several of them built and know what work goes into them. luckily My friends and gunsmiths never really charge me what they should. I know of a few revo shooters pay upward of $2000.00 for a top of the line Race Revos. Have Revos changed in the last few years? Lets see, you got more bullets, USPSA will only let you shoot six. Optics have been added, again USPSA says no. The one thing that has changed is the learning curve. When I started, like many of the older guys,(not that I'm old or anything) we had to study and perfect a speed load. I took videos of many variations of speed loading and along with Gene and Phil we took what was essential and tossed the unecessary movement of our hands. We had to relearn the reload and get rid of our bad habits. (Even though they still creep back in) But being revo guys we shared what we learned with others and new revo guys so they did not have to go through the whole learning curve. That being said will I buy a new 625E, probably not but I have paid $1100.00 for a new 627 and have just sent it off to Randy. Hopefully all the hard work in getting the "project" to the drawing board will not be in vain

[dgsmith]

I will buy one if it is done right. The only thing I do not like is the two piece barrel idea. It seems cheep it , upsets the weight balance . I would be very suprised if it could hold up to the volume of shooting we do. I agree with carmoney that the 25-2 redone in stainless would be a great seller. I do not understand Patricks accuracy. My 25-2 will do 1.5" at 25 yards DA offhand.

[Randy Lee]

Yeah, you can shoot 'em fast and they're good for guys like me whose eyes are HEADED SOUTH (it's coming for you, Randy! Really! Well, in a couple of decades...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Michael,

What makes you think I'm not blind as a bat now? I'm shooting a seeing eye revolver for the Steel Challenge

Hey Bubber,

The design and work are labors of love, so even if Smith makes something close to what I described, even if it is somewhat dilute, it's better than nuthin' in my book. At least I made them notice us- sort of like a mosquito.

[Randy Lee]

The two piece barrel assembly may work to our advantage. Like the Dan Wesson, tensioning the barrel usually results in predictable harmonics and if done right will add to the accuracy. Smith has used it on the newer revolvers I've seen and it is a cost saving measure. If the barrel assembly is set up like the 327 5", I can foresee some unbelievable accuracy potential down the road.

[Carmoney]

I'm gonna try to keep an open mind until I see it. And until I see the real "street price."

However, in the meantime, if I see a nice minty 25-2 at a gun show at a decent price (walked away from a pristine beauty priced at $450 a few months back), I might just buy it--my old 25-2 is getting pretty loose, but has a lot of sentimental value and I still take it with me to the matches as a back-up....

Then I'd do the action and chamfer job myself, narrow the trigger and skeletonize the hammer myself (yep, perfect job for the Dremel, I can even make it look real nice and trick!), send it out to be brush hard-chromed (what the hell, it looks like stainless and hardens up the bolt notches on the cylinder--not that this is really necessary on most of the old guns, as Randy mentioned earlier), pin on an SDM front sight myself, slap a Millet on the back and a set of rubber Hogues (wood Jerrys hurt my thumb joint after awhile with IPSC major loads; many others have found the same). There you go. Done.

It probably won't shoot cast lead bullets worth a crap--most of the 25-2s don't do well with lead bullets--so I'll load up some jacketed stuff for it, which it will shoot extremely accurately if it's like any of the other three 25-2s I've owned and used in competition over the years. (After all, they're bona fide bullseye guns!)

What'll all that cost me? Maybe $750, or a little less. And I'll bet it would hold me over pretty nice while I save up for that 625-E........

[Randy Lee]

Hi Mike,

That is a very viable idea- cleaning up a 25-2. I think all of us simply want a revolver set up "just the way we would like". As the new 625 were to come from the factory, I too would still want to do a few things to it to make it mine.

The new gun would simply make it easier and faster for me to make a true custom gun which would still fit under USPSA guidelines. With what I know at this point in time, I'm pretty sure I could create a revolver that has a more refined sight picture, responsive 4.0lb trigger and sub 2" FIFTY yard accuracy with much less time involved. If I were to compete against you, Cliff, Patrick and yes you too Mr. Bane- I would want every possible advantage.

If I am a poor shooter, I would want to use modern technology to allow me to keep up with you guys. If I am a good revo shooter, the tool will work with me and enhance my skills, allowing me to perform at my edge. The goal of this design is to win matches.

[hopalong]

Randy,

Got a protype?

Send it to me, I'll see if it can win the Alabama, Mississippi state matches, then I'll send it to Dan Carden and he can see if it will win the Area -2 match....

All joking aside (at least for a second)

What will a gun like this do for say Cliff, who just got his back from you ???

I'm still relatively new to this revolver game, not been doing it for 2 years yet, what do you think it would do vs. my 625-4 I shoot?

also, If I were to get one to use, I would need to get 2, just in case I broke it at the wrong time and needed an instant replacement. If it is as different as you suggest then handling will be different and so will feel. would be a bad thing to have to change guns that feel different at say the Nationals or Worlds.

So that 1500 just went to 3000 !!!!!

Also,

How could it be guaranteed that these guns go where they are intended.....

into the hands of USPSA/IPSC shooters(not flameing the ICORE shooters but it is a 6 shooter made for USPSA/IPSC) instead of casual plinkers and collectors?

Just a little to think about.

HOP

[Carmoney]

I'm definitely interested in seeing if the accuracy fulfills the potential you guys are talking about.....if this thing really shoots that much better than a stock "regular" wheelgun, the money is not going to be such an issue.

(Oddly enough, I happen to own a Ransom Rest....)

[Randy Lee]

Hi Hop,

What will it do for Cliff? Hmmm...

Make him look cooler than he already is . Seriously, assuming he were to shoot the same loads he is currently using, drop about .2 grains to make the same power factor, better long range accuracy- especially if 50 yd standards are involved, drop his trigger pull weight by about 1/4 lb(conservative estimate just by having a lighter cylinder). Use a Dawson fiber optic .100 or .090 wide front sight or any other .300x.060x60egree front that he liked, less likely to burn his hand on the cylinder on a hot day, feel less torque on the gun when he's shooting fast( can affect accuracy). As Patrick said about the WS, a more accurate revolver would have had it's advantages.

My hope is that it would feel better and handle better than any other 45acp revo he has ever owned-essentially that he would like it better and in turn shoot it more than any of his other guns. For me, the more I like my revolver, the better I shoot it.

It will be hard to keep this out of the hands of collectors. To the accountants at Smith, their money is as green as ours.

I would like to see Smith set aside four of these specifically for the World Shoot team members. If we are sending our best to represent the U.S.A., shouldn't they be going with the best that we can provide? I'd even donate my time and services to tune the guns to each individual shooter. That way if you were selected, you'd only have to buy one.

I think the average joe weekend shooter won't risk the wrath of their spouse to own one. But even if they do, who is to say they wouldn't gather as much enjoyment from the gun as we would? The more that are sold really equates to the greater the incentive for Smith to make more. When I'm old and grumpy, and go to the public range to meet my chronies, playing that age old game of who has the nicer toys, I could see myself shooting a 6.5" 625 to see who buys lunch.

500 units is a lot of revolvers!

[Randy Lee]

If I had control over who were to get the first units, Jerry M., Patrick S. and Michael B. would get them.

They all have unique areas of expertise with which to test the guns- funtionality/durability, accuracy/execution of design, and sellability.

Hearing from all three of these gentlemen, I think, would paint a clear picture of the gun and whether it would live up to our expectations.

With today's current manufacturing capabilities, revolvers should be more accurate than they are at this time.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

However, in the meantime, if I see a nice minty 25-2 at a gun show at a decent price (walked away from a pristine beauty priced at $450 a few months back), I might just buy it--my old 25-2 is getting pretty loose, but has a lot of sentimental value and I still take it with me to the matches as a back-up....

T

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am getting mine back today after it's visit to the place it was born. I will let you know how it works out. No Ransom rest, but I may be able to scrounge a sand bag

Regards,

[Luke Fay]

I just want to add this bit of information, I shoot with Cliff, on most Tuesday nights at a local indoor range we set up a stage. Now Cliff is the number one shooter most nights, We do have a couple of guys that can make him work for it. But since Cliff took delivery of his revolver that Randy has done, no one been able to come close to catching him. Gear helps, will it turn a C shooter into a Grand Master, No. But it will allow a shooter the oportunity for fractional improvement that can get them though a sticky spot and continue to improve their game. Lets face it this is not a cheap hobbie. It is lots of fun, with great people, and cool toys and a fantastic way to spend a weekend, maybe see some parts of the country that you would never go on your own. Sign me up for one 625-E.

[hopalong]

Randy, Thanks for the input.

Not that it means anything but here is a suggestion on dispersal of these guns....

Middle man seems to be more than Slightly interested so my guess is he would be the "Dealer" to get the order.

It will take a little extra work for him but to get the guns in the place they are intended (ACTIVE USPSA/IPSC REVOLVER shooters) here is a suggestion.

Again, not disrespecting the ICORE shooters but the gun is a 6 shooter designed/intended for USPSA/IPSC shooting.

If you want a gun, send your name, USPSA/IPSC number to M.M.

He then can check your status as to whether you are actively promoting the revolver division.

All active shooters will get one first, then those who are on the wait list can get what is left.

Out of 500 there may be 150 to go out first as most of the guys with multiple classifications are shooting another Division primarily and shoot revolver as a second gun.

Then the collectors, dabblers, ect can have access to them.

S&W won't care, M.M. will have already bought the guns from them.

Just an Idea....

Hop

Hi Luke good to hear from you down there.....Keep the pressure on Walsh !!!!

[Attila]

Randy, Thanks for the input.

Not that it means anything but here is a suggestion on dispersal of these guns....

Middle man seems to be more than Slightly interested so my guess is he would be the "Dealer" to get the order.

It will take a little extra work for him but to get the guns in the place they are intended (ACTIVE USPSA/IPSC REVOLVER shooters) here is a suggestion.

Again, not disrespecting the ICORE shooters but the gun is a 6 shooter designed/intended for USPSA/IPSC shooting.

If you want a gun, send your name, USPSA/IPSC number to M.M.

He then can check your status as to whether you are actively promoting the revolver division.

All active shooters will get one first, then those who are on the wait list can get what is left.

Out of 500 there may be 150 to go out first as most of the guys with multiple classifications are shooting another Division primarily and shoot revolver as a second gun.

Then the collectors, dabblers, ect can have access to them.

S&W won't care, M.M. will have already bought the guns from them.

Just an Idea....

Hop

Hi Luke good to hear from you down there.....Keep the pressure on Walsh !!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So someone like me, a USPSA member that is paying off my life membership, but has yet to get an actual classification in any catagory, will be on a wait list? I only recently found a club that I can drive to and often have to work weekends. Way to get more shooters in the revolver division.

[Randy Lee]

HI Hop,

That's not a bad plan- I suppose we'll need to hear from Middle Man on it.

Here is what I'm learning about this project:

Everything is really between the Distributor and Smith insofar as what options are on the revo, what components are used and even the name.

I have not heard from the Performance Center on what they think of my technical recommendations, or if they have even seen them.

I know they are busy and this is only one potential project to throw on their pile of projects upcoming and those already in process.

I know there is a lot of technical info which Jim cannot share with me for legal reasons. It's almost as if I need a security clearance to gain access to the process. So as it stands, all I know is that the gun will have a 2 piece barrel, good sights, PC hammer and trigger, improved barrel throat and a Ti cylinder. Beyond that is anyone's guess.

[Middle Man]

I wouldn't worry about wait lists and such. A number like 500 is big, big enough that if you talk with your local gun monger he can get one for you. When and if the gun actually goes into production, I'll be sure to get the word out to you all and you can laugh as your favorite dealer asks "You want a what?!"...remember you'll all have the inside track on the info.

Now I'm headed out to a late kickoff on The Plain. Look for me on ESPN coverage of GA Tech at the mighty Auburn Tigers. WAR EAGLE!

[hopalong]

Atilla,

It looks like there will be no problem (according to M.M.)

But what I was proposing was this: if you or whoever wants one is actively shooting revolver, they will not have to wait for the gun when it comes available.

So if you finally get to start shooting, and shoot some matches with any revolver, then you will be actively shooting and thus would not have to wait.

See what it does....It gets those out that have a revolver and gets them shooting even before this thing becomes available, then when it gets here the people who will use it for what it is made for will be able to get it first and keep shooting making the divison grow.

Randy, I still don't know about this 2 peice barrel.... :wacko:

HOP

[TMC]

I'm still in for one Randy.

Todd

[Randy Lee]

Randy, I still don't know about this 2 peice barrel.... :wacko:

HOP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HOP,

About 25 years ago, I was pretty skeptical too- until my friend picked up a Dan Wesson pistol pack .44 mag. He had some erratic accuracy and POI issues when he would switch barrels. We used a torque wrench and incrementally increased tension on the barrel nut. We watched the groups shink from 4" to about 1.2" at 25 yards off the sandbags.

If the PC uses the same setup as the 327 5"( Uses a barrel nut, shroud which has the front sight, and barrel threaded on both ends), there exists the possibility of dialing in the barrel like a tuning fork for the smallest group size. Plus, I can beg Irv Stone jr. to make a barrel if I'm not happy with the accuracy of a given barrel.

It might take some time for people to get used to, and I'm sure Smith won't want the end user to remove the barrel assemblies. But squeezing every last ounce of accuracy out of the system will be simplified.

Randy

[10mmdave]

Just as a point of interest, ICORE stages are 6 shot neutral, this "wonder gun"

would work really well in ICORE Limited, a shooting discipline that obviously

caters to round guns.

Everyone deserves to be able to purchase one of these 625-E's (thanks for the

model number Bubber ) and @ $1500 retail or $1100-$1300 shelf price I think

there will be plenty available.

Round Gun Shooter, there is an ICORE match in PA on the 25th of Sept. at the

Ontalunee Rod and Gun Club, check out www.ICORE.org

Mbane....you mentioned The east coast, does that include the Northeast ??

(PR of Mass)

DaveP

[BadShot]

Hi Guys,

Let me get this straight. We are all gonna go out and spend $1500 to get a new gun, otherwise won't be competitve anymore. When we have all spent $1500, we will all still be in the same rankings that we today. The cost of entering the revolver division will go from $600 to $1500, so we are less likely to attract the new shooters we want to attract. Not so sure that this is a good thing...

Skip

[D.carden]

OK it's time to sound off here.

I agree with Badshot 100%.

Here goes:

1) You shoot a 20rnd field course ( fair amount of movement involved ).

2) It takes you 20sec to complete the stage.

3) A good shooter will have +,- .20 shot-to-shot splits.

4) .20 x 20 shots = 4sec of actual shooting time.

5) that leaves 16sec worth of "other stuff", draw, reloads, footwork, transitions, etc

6) shooting= 20% other stuff=80%

7) a $1500 gun isn't going to shave much off my 20% !!!!

8) i need to work on the 80% "other stuff"

Now, keep in mind this is an IPSC example.

Also, I'd like to see how many ICORE shooters will buy this gun and use it at an IRC match rather than their 8-shooters.!!!!!

Summary:

I'd prefer to re-barrel my current 625 with a 6.5" and leave everything else alone

My .02

Dan

[Randy Lee]

I'm happy that the project is being discussed here on the forum(thanks Brian).

The new revo isn't the holy grail- it won't improve bad habits nor remind you to take that follow up shot on the delta I just dropped on a far target. Stock 5" 625 in the right hands can still beat a $1500.00 version. A stock 625 isn't any less competitive.

But if my gun allowed me to hedge past you in points for that same 20 second run, then I've justified the gun's value to myself.

On a psychological level, if my pricey revolver made you doubt your equipment or competitiveness, even if only for a split second, then I've gained an advantage.

The gun won't be for everyone nor every sport, although some may use it for ICORE competition in the sixgun category. I did see several 625's at this year's IRC.

My question is this: Why do a trigger job , or chamfer your cylinder or put a 6.5" 25-2 barrel on your gun at all? What are your motivations for seeking out these mods?