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6.5" 625 Enhanced Revolver


Randy Lee

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Patrick,

We had the best team we could assemble this year. Thanks for going and representing us. :)

What I am saying is this.

If USPSA has a team selection system, and we know that is how it will be done, then those who are interested will know what to do.

Yes the system is not the best, look at our Standard team, we had good shooters and a good team but Robbie was not on it.

BUT if we know that is how it is going to be done. Period then those interested will go to the Area and Nationals to get qualified for team selection.

And If USPSA doesn't have the money to assist the Revolver team, and yet wants to let us be "officially" the USPSA revolver team maybe they(USPSA HQ) needs to try to get the REVOLVER team some assistance elsewhere.

I understand completely that some of our "Leaders" don't want us around, but YOU, JERRY, CLIFF, LISA pay the same dues as Robbie Leatham, Jake Di Vita, Julie Goloski or any of the other members of USPSA. why the hell can't USPSA help ya'll out? aside from the Revolver division just being the "Red headed step child" (Note: Jake did not go to World shoot but he did pay his dues)

What I'm getting at is this, We are all members of USPSA, what is offered to one should be offered to all......NO MATTER What kind of gun they shoot !!!!!

I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

Thanks for your time, YOU(Patrick) want to run for USPSA President? I'll vote for you.

HOPALONG

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Furthermore, the best way USPSA could develop more equal participation in all of its divisions (not just L and O) is to actually treat them equally. For example, keep the prize tables at area matches and Nationals equivalent -- 10th place in Revo wins a prize the same value as 10th place O or 10th Place in L.

If someone wants to say "No fair, there's only 20 of them shooting and 150 of us!" the appropriate answer is, "Well, you're welcome to shoot any division you want. If you think it's easier to win a good prize in Revo because there's fewer people shooting it, then sign up and shoot Revo."

If USPSA decides to recognize a division, it should do so fairly and equally.

This logic also translates to slots for the World Shoot. USPSA should foot the bill for the revo team the same way it pays for the other teams--absolutely equally. This would encourage more participation in Revo, which would be a great thing.

It's a chicken/egg situation: USPSA says there's not enough Revo shooters to justify treating the Revo division the same as the others.....but of course the reality is that more people would shoot Revo if there were an equal potential recognition! Catch-22.

Want to help locally? Make sure your section match WILL have plaques or trophies for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd finishers in each USPSA division, regardless of the number of entries and regardless of class. What's it gonna cost you--25 or 50 bucks per division maybe? You'll more than make up for it in entry fees. I can think of one otherwise great section match this summer that had 20 revolver entries, and yet the shooters in 2nd and 3rd place (both of whom traveled in from several states away) didn't get their names called and didn't win plaques or nothin'. If you're putting together a prize table, don't throw a few trinkets over on the corner and call it the "revolver table"--keep in equal. Again, if people complain because they think it's easier to win Revo against a smaller field of shooters, they should be invited to come back next time with a revolver and go for it.

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

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Furthermore, the best way USPSA could develop more equal participation in all of its divisions (not just L and O) is to actually treat them equally.  For example, keep the prize tables at area matches and Nationals equivalent -- 10th place in Revo wins a prize the same value as 10th place O or 10th Place in L.   

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

Mike,

I must agree. I recently shot a large match and took 2d revo. There were only 4 wheels total.

I went to the prize table a little past 100 of the 127 or so shooters in the match.

No sour grapes intended. It seemed a bit odd.

Had I known 2d wheel came after "50th" place in Limited, I'd have been home by noon instead of 8PM.

Dave

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Get this one.

I managed to win an very large match that has a notorius prize table.

Revo had 9 shooters if I can remember.

Open had no less than 15 guns, Frames, uppers ect.

Limited had a few less

Production and L-10 had their fair share.... both had a few guns.

Revo.....the best thing there was a Brownells Leather range bag :angry:

Needless to say...... I will NEVER go back to that large Match.

HOP

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Just to keep this thread drift going,

Patrick,

I think Cliff would have qualified and so would I. We both did the odd year even match shuffle. But I am sick of beating that dead horse. Congrats on everybodys performance at the world shoot, thanks for representing us revolver people the best you could. we are all proud of you guys and gal.

Tom

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Just to keep this thread drift going,

........  Congrats on everybodys performance at the world shoot, thanks for representing us revolver people the best you could.  we are all proud of you guys and gal.

Tom

I totally agree! Few indeed have the GUTS & Nerve to shoot in the Rodney Dangerfield Division! ;)

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Needless to say...... I will NEVER go back to that large Match.

Sam, on a positive note, here's a nice contrast to your experience:

At this year's Area 3 Championship (with 9 wheelguns), under the direction of our very capable and reasonable new AD, Emanuel Bragg, a brand new gun was awarded to the overall winner of all five divisions, PLUS to the winner of each class within each division that was represented by at least three shooters. So the winner (John Burkholder) took away a gun, and high C (Kevin Klesser) got one too. The other divisions in Revo didn't have three shooters, unfortunately, but that's nobody's fault but those who didn't attend. The non-gun prizes on the revo table were in line with those in the other divisions too, I thought.

I understand not every match can have a great prize table like the 2005 Area 3, but each match can sure as hell make an effort to keep things reasonably fair between the divisions.

Kudos to Manny and the folks in Kansas City who managed this very fine match. I'm glad to know that my AD is respectful of his constituency in all the recognized USPSA divisions. We need more of that type of forward thinking in USPSA's leadership.

Mike

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Mike;

I had a similar experience at this year's Area 8 Championship at East Huntington Practical Shooters. All Five Divisions had a gun as the top prize, with Revolver having five participants. They also raffled off an XL650 press at $5 a chance for the Junior Program. More matches like that and I'm certain you'd see more wheelgunners come out to play.

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Tom,

I must have missed some of the Area results when I did a quick scan. However, a team without Jerry would not have done the deed. And if Jerry didn't qualify under the USPSA system, then what good is it? The USPSA system is designed to work with a threshold number of shooters (larger than the revolver set), and a regular supply of GMs to keep the results matched between matches.

I won the Ohio Sectional, posting a 100% score. Great. But without Jerry there to apply the real stage factoring, or a realistic USPSA classification system for wheelguns, that 100% means nothing compared to someone else's 100% in another match.

Mathematically, the USPSA system is such a mis-match to the revolver cadre that we could end 2007 with five or ten shooters tied for slots, an few of them actually having shot head-to-head to resolve the ties.

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We interrupt this drift to bring all wheelgunners important news on the 625 6.5" Performance Center.

We have a price.

I have an estimated cost from Smith & Wesson and an estimated wholesale, so I estimate retail price to be $1500 or less, with the exact price dependant on individual retailers.

The only change from the list that has been discussed previously on this thread is the requirement, by S&W, for a two piece barrel unit. If you all have not been paying close attention, Smith is moving towards producing more of the two piece units across their product catalog. Take a look at the new 520, 619, 620 medium frame guns that are new for 2005, they have two piece barrels. Also, Smith has been doing a lot of two piece work on Airweight Ti and Sc snub nosed guns, so the technology is not all that new.

As Randy Lee and others have stated, from the factory the trigger pull will probably not be to every individuals liking. That is an unfortunate neccessity of mass production, while I'm sure Ford could tune every production Mustang to have 650HP, but they're not going to do that. Consequently, S&W is not going to make every gun with a 3lb trigger pull. However, the 625 6.5" package will be as close as you could get to a custom gun in a large production run. Compaired to a basic Limited class type pistol, the above cost is right in line with what is paid for an off the shelf gun. Having said all this I doubt it'll keep the whiners from whining :rolleyes:

Oh, one other thing, this idea requires a 500 piece run to jusify the costs of developement and production.

Hope you all have a safe and happy Labor Day weekend!

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not to be too picky about the possible cost, but I could go and buy a 325PD for about $700 and use the cylinder out of it (have to turn the barrel in also, or just buy a new one for about $120 more). Also, i think that a full all steel gun, except for the cylinder might be the idea behind this new gun. Revolver shooter's don't have the luxury of a slide to cushion the recoil and we tend to want all the weight we could keep in one. I don't think anyone wants to run 29 oz gun thru a major match where 30+ rnd stages are the norm.

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WOW !!!! :o:o:o

At that price I can buy me 2 TWO production 625s put a new back sight, a Black Majic spring kit in them and install a Miculek grip on them and still have 500 dollars. I have that in the 2 I have now (less than 1000)

NOT being rude or anything like that but thems the facts.

OR I can get me a good STI limited gun, OR I can get me a good RIFLE.

See you've scared HKsniperman, and he doesn't even shoot wheelguns.....but after the TN match I had him thinking about it.

At that price, the only people interested in those guns will be collectors.....and maybe a few shooters, they certainly won't go where they are intended.

I certainly don't mind my steel cylinder and all that extra weight.

Ask them about another run of 25 model guns in .45 ACP with the 6 1/2 inch barrel maybe they can get the price down on them. ;)

And what is a 2 peice barrel unit?

How about just rechambering the 657 to 45 ACP? Mine has a 6 1/2 barrel, N frame, just needs a slighly shorter cylinder.

I have been skeptic about the gun since it was first brought up.

Randy is definately on the cutting edge of the Revolver world and No doubt a gun with his "designs" would be "HI-Tech" but cost for return is not worth it for me.

Just my nickels worth.

HOPALONG

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Now that people have picked themselves off the floor after the stickershock, I would like to put things in perspective:

625 5" Retail- $767.00

Ti 325 cylinder assembly( IF they were available to the gen. public)- $200.00+

Forged hammer and trigger- $80.00+

Chamfer cylinder(assuming that it wasn't done to excess and have fun with the Ti)-$30.00

6.5" 25 barrel in good condition- $150.00+ $75.00 fitting

Better rear sight (we'll use a Millett target rear in this case)-$54.95

Fiber optic front sight(pinned SDM)- $28.00 + $15.00 installation.

Total for just this far: $1474.95

Keep in mind that the new gun will have the LPA rear sight which has better elevation range and runs about $99.00, Cylinder chamfered before Melanite treatment, broach cut rifling which will stabilize lead and copper coated bullets more effectively, an improved forcing cone dimension which will improve accuracy(on the average) as well as velocity(also on the average) in addition to an interchangeable front sight system which allows you to use sights that you may already have on your autos(I know you guys own autos, even if you won't admit it).

There are several other features which I haven't mentioned that would bump up the price of converting a standard 625 to something near equivalent.

The pricetag is higher than any box stock production revolver used in our sport, no question there. But as Middleman said, this is as close to a custom revolver as you can get from a major manufacturer. Oh yeah, and be legal for USPSA competition.

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I must echo the WOW statement. :blink: If I bought a $1500 dollar revolver the first thing shot with it would be me :ph34r: when my "Girlfriend with two Rings" learned the price tag. I'm a lousy liar and she's shoots faster than I can run. :D

mcb

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Another question....

Would this gun have an Ignition key?

Would it shoot ALL A's no matter where I pointed it?

How about automaticly reloading itself? (I've got several cheaper than 1500 bucks that do)

Just kidding on the last two but what about the ignition key?

HOP

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The cost is prohibitive for some(perhaps most- I really don't know) and that is a given. If I look at our sport, it is a sport of luxury. When I go to our local USPSA match and look at the guns, I see STI Limited and Open guns, Glocks in various forms of upgrade, Para's as well. Basically, the firearms have evolved to fit the parameters of the sport and their divisions. It all costs money. Perhaps not all at one time, but it does cost money.

The revolver division has pretty much been stagnant and nobody has really paid attention to it. There really haven't been any technological or equipment advances in our(although I haven't even classified in this division...yet) corner of the sandbox.

We whine and complain about how no one takes us seriously and how under-represented we are in this sport. Do you know what I hear the most when I ask IPSC shooters why they don't shoot a revolver? "The trigger pull is too hard and I can't shoot them fast or accurately" or " It really hurt's to shoot major power factor loads in a revolver". Yet if I hand them an "evolved" revolver that is tuned up, a grip which reduces the harshness , the right loads and groups 2.5" at fifty yards, the response I get is "I can SHOOT this!" . They even have fun trying to do the reloads.

If we want more people to shoot in this division, along with what Carmoney, Hopalong and Patrick have said, we need to make the equipment more user friendly and appealing. Our guns should point as naturally and fire as effortlessly as any of the STIs, SVs or Super custom newfangled gyroscopic flux capacitor driven autos seen in our sport today.This is going to take development, time and of course money.

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I'm a little confused here...it's expensive, but in 25 some odd years of competition shooting, it would not be the first time I plucked down those kinds of bucks for a competition-customized piece. Current MSRP on an STI Edge is $1875, and I haven't heard of anyone getting the vapors over that number (and you can't even play without 5-6 $60 magazines and an autographed picture of Dave Skinner in a Speedo!). Jeez, people are paying Billy Wilson two grand for a *carry* 1911 to go play Stealthy Ninja Killer with...if you want his name on it, the "signature" edition is $4995!

As a rule, "the best" costs more than "what I can tinker together myself off gunsamerica.com with a Dremel tool, duct tape and a small shrine dedicated to Jerry M."

Of course, I'm going to have to hold up a liquor store...

Michael B

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If the new 625 Enhanced runs MSRP of $1500, then I'm still in. You forgot to add into your cost calculation the cost of buying two or three 625's or 25-2's to find one that will shoot anything close to that 2.5" at 50 yards. Mine won't. Neither my 625 nor any of the several 25-2s in the shop (mine and customers) will do anything close to that.

The farthest target at WSXIV was 41 meters away. I shot it with a wheelgun that delivers about 3" at 25 yards, and still got an A and a C hit. I could have done it a bit faster with a more accurate gun. Hell, I could have done the whole match faster with a more accurate gun.

If all we get is accuracy on par with a slightly-tuned Limited pistol, and durable locking slots, it's a deal. Past that, I view extras as free options.

Yes, there are those who shoot USPSA/IPSC with box-stock Glocks that cost them under $500. But look at your next squad. How many $1500+ Limited or Limited 10 guns, and $2500+ Open guns do you see? (Mike beat me to that.)

We'll still fuss over the triggerpull, we can't help ourselves. But as spec-d, the 625-E is a revolver racegun ready to go.

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We whine and complain about how no one takes us seriously and how under-represented we are in this sport.

I was kind of staying out of this until this comment. When you go to a major match and are told by more than one RO this is not a game for revolvers, it shows the thought process involved and also why No one takes us seriously. The opinion comes from the top on down.

Do you know what I hear the most when I ask IPSC shooters why they don't shoot a revolver? "The trigger pull is too hard and I can't shoot them fast or accurately" or " It really hurt's to shoot major power factor loads in a revolver". 

And who is the whiner in this instance. Revolvers Have evolved. These shooters have not. With practice, the snub nose can be competitive in the right hands.

Yet if I hand them an "evolved" revolver that is tuned up, a grip which reduces the harshness , the right loads and groups 2.5" at fifty yards, the response I get is "I can SHOOT this!" .

They can shoot it because you have eliminated what is necessary to shoot a revolver. Proper trigger control and practice.

If we want more people to shoot in this division, along with what Carmoney, Hopalong and Patrick have said, we need to make the equipment more user friendly and appealing. Our guns should point as naturally and fire as effortlessly as any of the STIs, SVs or Super custom newfangled gyroscopic flux capacitor driven autos seen in our sport today.This is going to take development, time and of course money.

Wheel gun shooters are a different breed, IMNSHO, most work on their revolvers and get them where they like them, I do not consider myself competitive in the sport, but I have shot and worked on my revolvers for over 30 years. I practice, and I play when I can. To say we need to change to be accepted, is just wrong in so many ways. I pay my dues lie anyone else. I pay a match fee like anyone else. I don't want to be treated special or handicapped I just want to shoot what I brought and be treated with the same respect all shooters deserve.

If they don't want a revolver division, why did they start one?

USPSA needs to decide what they want. If they don't want revolver shooters to play their game in a division of their own, fine. My 8 shot works in Limted 10 and I don't finish last. (I don't finish first either) I can live with that until ICORE makes it's way East.

Sorry to drift this, I am going to go take a nap ;) It has been a long hard week. (And it's not over yet.) And at $1500, I will not be buying unless I do it as a member of the SWCA.

Regards,

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Not everyone thinks we're on the range after a ride on the short bus. However, some do, and we can open their eyes. On a couple of stages at WSXIV, the RO looked at me and Jerry like "Who do they think they're kidding?" Jerry usually set them straight, and after I did the same right after Jerry, one RO in particular looked at us (I kept an eye on him) with that "How do I get one of those things?" look.

Don't come in with a chip on your shoulder, nor apologetic. Just show up with an "I came here to shoot your stage, where are the targets?" attitude, and they'll get the point.

One thing many respect is equipment. You'll find a whole lot of ROs look at anyone wiht an Open gun as a serious shooter. And Glock shooters (except for Dave) are viewed as newbies. Hose a stage, and they'll see you differently. Let's do some wheelgun hosin' with a hi-zoot revolver, and see who snickers then.

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I was kind of staying out of this until this comment. When you go to a major match and are told by more than one RO this is not a game for revolvers, it shows the thought process involved and also why No one takes us seriously. The opinion comes from the top on down.

It is truly unfortunate that a match official would ever say something like that. I like to think that even an ignorant mind can change.

And who is the whiner in this instance. Revolvers Have evolved. These shooters have not. With practice, the snub nose can be competitive in the right hands.

I have to respectfully disagree that the revolver has evolved. It has been made cheaper to produce but not more ergonomic nor accurate. Many revolver shooters look to people like Jerry, Jason Pettitt, Vic Pickett and a host of other top revolver shooters to help them understand revolvercraft. Each year at the IRC, the competition gets stiffer. Shooters are learning.

They can shoot it because you have eliminated what is necessary to shoot a revolver. Proper trigger control and practice.

Not really. The fundamentals of shooting still apply, regardless of how heavy or light a trigger pull is. The lighter trigger pull just means the shooter doesn't have to exert as much force to get the gun to go bang. A friend of mine with arthritis loves shooting his revolvers in competition. He has stated upon numerous occasions that he would not be shooting a revolver if the pulls were approaching factory weight. If you ask Lisa Farrell, she will tell you the same thing. My work only allows the shooter to operate without having to fight the gun. Conscious trigger control must be present.

To say we need to change to be accepted, is just wrong in so many ways. I pay my dues lie anyone else. I pay a match fee like anyone else. I don't want to be treated special or handicapped I just want to shoot what I brought and be treated with the same respect all shooters deserve.

In all seriousness, I hope you don't think that I am asking you to change- that was never the intention of my post. I shoot a revolver because I enjoy it. I also want to perform at my best. If I can engineer a more accurate, more durable revolver which even if only a placebo effect gives me more confidence in my shooting , I will do so. If the 625-E becomes available, I will gladly pay for and use it. It is my choice.

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