6.5" 625 Enhanced Revolver

[MBaneACP]

You know, this is a pretty neat thread. I can't think of another circumstance where a gun has been *designed* by the potential end users (thanks Al Gore for inventing the Internet! LOL!).

I'm interested in the general "revolver renaissance" as a subject for a couple of SHOOTING GALLERY shows. I think it's probably a result of overexposure to "black guns" — there's only so much enthusiasm you can generater for another plastic pistol, regardless of how good that pistol is.

There's always been demand for trick guns...competition, hunting, just plain cool...but it has been submerged in recent years by a wave of stealthy ninja killer crap in the gun mags...don't get me started...

RE: cylinders, I know a DA cylinder is a tougher beast to deal with, but in single action world, guys like Hamilton Bowen, Dave Clements and Larry Crow have been making new cylinders for years.

Michael B

[Patrick Sweeney]

Jerry and I had a long talk about cylinders between stages. He's worn out more wheelguns than some of us have owned, so when he expresses an opinon, it pays to pay attention. He says opening and closing is more wear than shooting for some people. Opening it wrong can be very hard on a cylinder.

Turns out I've been doing it right all this time. You might be, too Mike. When pressing the cylinder open, push fromt he top and not the bottom. Don't slam or sling it shut.

Michael, i understand. Yes, a new plastic gun may survive the apocolypse, but most (or all) have all the warmth and charm of a Mikita portable drill.

[EricW]

Question: Is it possible to pull the cylinder out of a S&W and induction-harden the slots? Is the alloy known so that this can be done competently?

Patrick,

So Jerry's basically saying you have to rotate the cylinder off of the stop instead of dragging the cylinder across the stop?

=========================================

You losers might actually goad me into buying another wheelgun. I do have to say that I swore off S&W after seeing some of their recent production pieces. Peeeyooo....

[Randy Lee]

I would agree that rough opening and closing of the cylinder can be harsh on many parts including the cyl, stop slots as well as the bolt hole in the frame( I've seen a lot of elongated ones in some of the competition guns over the last 5 years from ICORE shooters).

However, the physics of opening the cylinder does not explain the raised surface or the fingerprinting impact marks on the force stopping side of the cylinder slot.

Looking at the slots on a well used cylinder under a microscope will show that the metal deformation and direction of grain compression is more or less perpendicular to the slot wall. Force and angular velocity calculations can be extrapolated to explain the amount of energy required to deform the slots and more importantly their location. If necessary I will go back to my local university and see if I can gain access to the materials testing lab and ask some of my professors about it(I would only do it if it were necessary to bring engineering design changes to be implemented at Smith and Wesson- just not enough time in the day).

Looking at the physical action of opening of the cylinder, the cylinder stop disengages from the slot on the entry side of the cut, not the stopping wall. Placing your fingers high on the cylinder does two things. First, you have a better mechanical lever over the point of resistance(cylinder stop in the slot). Second, the slight rotation of the cylinder changes the contact orientation of the slot/cylinder stop so that the stop has less vertical wall interference to overcome as the cylinder moves out of position. Again, the interference I refer to is on the side with the entry cut, not the stopping side. Applying force below the centerline of the cylinder causes a slight clockwise rotation of the cyl. as well as less mechanical advantage over the point of resistance. This can cause the cyl. stop to pin itself against the vertical wall (again on the entry side of the slot) increasing the amount of force necessary to open the cylinder. Damage from this can be seen as deformation and a raised ledge on the entry side of the slot.

My point in all this is that no matter where you position your fingers upon opening the cylinder, there is no way to generate enough force to cause the degree of metal raised on the impact side.

As Patrick and Jerry have essentially said, opening and closing the cylinder gently and smoothly is the best way to go. Do not slam, spin or smack the cylinder shut.

The way I open my cylinder is to rotate the frame while holding the cylinder in a fixed position. The entire frame comes to rest in the palm of my left hand gently before the cylinder and crane come to a complete stop. Just a different way to describe the event.

I have been using the Ti cylinder in my Steel Challenge revolver for about 6 months now. I'm firing on average 600 rounds per week through it and dry firing it daily since the end of June. There is little evidence of wear on the cylinder stop slots and the track marks where the stop rides along the surface of the cylinder can only be seen if you hold the cylinder under a good light source at an angle.

The reasoning behind using the Ti cylinder is that no matter how abusive you may be in the opening and closing process, it will hold up better and reduce force related damage to the frame under competition conditions on the average.

All this is based upon a gun shooting minor and sub minor loads, so testing will need to be done with my 625 using 178 pf. loads inorder to see how the Ti holds up to a constant diet of major rounds. As far as repetition of handling goes, the Ti is holding up well.

Note: Everything I say could be wrong....

[Jerry V]

Randy,

What's the chance S&W would make parts available to allow us to customize existing revolvers. Such as Ti cylinders, barrels and forged parts that competitors for the most would only be interested in. As a example, I'd like to modify my 610 with a Ti cylinder (I'd just be happy if could get a fluted one), 5" full lug barrel and perhaps forged cylinder stop. Just a thought.

One other thought -- a L framed 40sw with a 5"full lug barrel would be really cool

--- Jerry

[TMC]

Hey Randy, how about making it in 45 GAP? Shorter cases and small pristol primers. If your going to go custom, why not go gamey too.

Todd

[mcb]

Since your using moon clip couldn't you already use 45GAP in a 45ACP revolver? I guess if you made it just for GAP you could shorted/lighten the cylinder a little bit but would it be worth it?

mcb

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I have never had problems with peened recesses for the cylinder stop but have a theory from what I have seen.

Aside from the opening and closing, I see many partially cock the hammer and spin the cylinder to make sure the clips are not bent and the cylinder will rotate freely. When they release the hammer, the cylinder is still free spinning and slams onto the stop. This will peen the recess as the rotation is faster than than the cylinder stop was designed to take.

I do not see much difference in the MIM stops vs the older stops other than sharper edges. I have a good suupply of stainless stops for my own use but rarely need a new one.

I really want to see a mock up if this ever happens. Thanks for all your work on this. I hope the end product is worth the effort.

Regards,

[robomanusa]

I think a titanium cylinder would benefit greatly if the chambers were chrome lined.

[TMC]

Since your using moon clip couldn't you already use 45GAP in a 45ACP revolver?  I guess if you made it just for GAP you could shorted/lighten the cylinder a little bit but would it be worth it?

mcb

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some folks have had accuracy problems with the shorter round caused by the distance from the bullet to the forcing cone.

[Randy Lee]

We are actively hitting Smith from all sides. Michael Bane has made his presence felt with the movers and shakers, Middleman has hit them from the distributor end, and I have been coordinating with Jim Rae directly. All the comments have been positive from Smith. We will be waiting to see the cost analysis but pretty much everything that I requested seems doable except a lighter than 10 lb. trigger pull.

Straight from the horse's mouth, there is a Mass. statute that double action revolvers be no less than 10 lbs. BUT one of the improvements I've suggested will make it easily adjustable for the end user. I unfortunately can say no more.

I also received the Ti cylinder to start the longevity testing phase.

As far as induction hardening, I'll have to find out what stainless they are using and whether it is suitable for the induction process.

Round gun, I too have seen this. Free spinning of the cylinder and letting the stop engage is definitely one way to damage the slots.

I'm not sure how the Performance Center is set up for retrofitting new cylinders to consumer guns. You would have to talk to them about that, but my suspicion is that the word "Liability" will rear it's ugly head once again.

They will sell forged hammers and triggers as far as I know.

[redmist10]

"revolver renaissance" = REVOlution

This thread has been very educational. Thanks for all the enlightening commentary.

Eric, you know you want to be a "loser" too....all the cool kids are doing it.

[Randy Lee]

Here's what we have thus far on the table:

1. 6.5" bbl. with broach cut rifling (Jerry's requested dimensions) profile and mass TBD

2. Ti cylinder fluted- .4515-.4520 throat, chamfered charge holes, Melanite surface treatment

3. Dovetail interchangeable front sight -width .100

4. Crane lock using detent/ball system currently seen on 627PC

5. Improved forcing cone geometry

6. LPA TXT01-07 adjustable rear sight

7. Performance Center forged hammer and serrated trigger (Hard Chromed)

These are the basics. There are also a few boring but important technical changes that will hopefully be incorporated into the system as well.

We'll see what ballpark price is generated over the next few weeks.

I tried to design the revolver using their existing blueprints and machine setups so as to not cause an increase in cost. That is why the gun will be set up for .45 acp instead of .45 GAP. They have the rifling broaches from the 625JM run that they did a few years back so no new cost there. They will have to purchase new tooling to do the front sight dovetail. The other features I requested require them to change some lines of code in their CNC centers so additional cost should be minimal.

It should turn out to be a nice setup.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Add one thing. Since this was your initial idea, the serial number sequence should be RL XXXXX or APEX ------

Regards,

Gary

[Byron Simpson]

With all the talk about underlugs, what about the concept of some kind of removeable/interchangeable underlugs? Those that wanted full could have them and those that wanted shorter could have them. They could even be made of different weights for different uses -- lighter for steel, heavier for USPSA.

What about barrels too? Jack Weigand had a pretty neat interchangeable barrel system a few years ago for Smith revos. Whatever happened to that?

[R112mercer]

Byron;

Any system of "interchangeable or removable weights" would conflict with the rules for Revolver Division in USPSA, which does not allow for "...any system of weights specifically designed to reduce recoil..." The way around this is Randy's approach, put on extra weight in the underlug and have the end user trim to taste.

[Randy Lee]

I plan to consult quite a bit with Jerry on the weight and balance of the gun. Then I will consult with Jim at the PC to get the barrel profile program ready for production. I suspect this will happen pretty quickly. Once the proto-gun is made, I hope to get some range time with Jerry to put the gun thru its paces. This way we can iron out any issues and make the necessary changes before it goes into production. Once Jerry gives the thumbs up, metal chips will begin flying in Springfield!

[mikey357]

...for Patrick Sweeney:

I've got a pre-Model 26...Model of 1950 Target...six-and-a-half inch barrel...in .45 ACP...on the way here (the HOT, HUMID South)...IF you'll be in these parts anytime soon, you're welcome to shoot it, measure it, weigh it, whatever...it is a "Shooter Grade" gun, and I'm planning to fire it some meeself...IF that sounds like something you want to arrange, you can e-mail me at mps6gunner@mindspring.com Hoping to see a "Race Revo" from Springfield, MA, sometime soon....mikey357

[10mmdave]

4. Crane lock using detent/ball system currently seen on 627PC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PLEASE NOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!

[Randy Lee]

Sorry,

Trying trying to keep their cost down. They may be open to using a plunger with reduced spring rating.

[10mmdave]

Sorry,

Trying trying to keep their cost down. They may be open to using a plunger with reduced spring rating.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure I'm not the only person that finds these new locks WAY too stiff.

There so bad I'm taking them out of my stock guns, I actually slipped off the

clylinder during a practice reload and hurt myself somehow, can't remember what

but I went to the bench and scrapped it right then and there.

[Randy Lee]

I agree that they are too strong. I install dual crane lock bearings on my guns(especially since 2 of my 627's have non factory barrels).

Thanks for your input- I'll make sure that it gets incorporated into the design- the reduced spring weight plunger .

[Carmoney]

I think they need to be that stiff---or almost that stiff, anyway--to do any real good. I've installed the Ron Power spring ball detents on several guns, and was never convinced they did much of anything.

Then again, the whole front lock-up thing is probably somewhat overrated anyway.....

[Randy Lee]

Smith's original ejector rod lock up was a good idea in that it helped with the alignment of the cylinder as the gun goes off. The downside for us is that it often resulted in a bent ejector rod and bolt pin , either from removing and reinstalling, or the rod backing out and the forceful attempt to open the cylinder. Not so good for us competition shooters. The bent ejector wreaks havoc on the trigger job, cylinder timing- all adding up to a frustrating match.

My ideal setup would be to use a crane lock with less force, and a front ejector rod centering ball that simply centers the rod. I wish I had more time in the day...

[Patrick Sweeney]

Today I went through the stage designs and counted, and so far in the match, the stage design has called for us reloading 74 times. Can we get a honkin' big radius on the beveled chambers? I'd hate to have to figure out how to grid/file/stone Ti to make them big enough.