6.5" 625 Enhanced Revolver

[9146gt]

Great idea... I will take one!!

Tom

[Shoepop]

For what it's worth I'm going to go against the grain here. I would like to see barrel length 6". Reason, I got rid of a 610 6 1/2" unfluted cylinder because it did not feel right. Grip changes did not help. Even with the unfluted cylinder 6.5"still had a muzzle heavy feel. Now add a lighter cylinder and it would be worse. With a 6" and underlug cut back I think it would be great.

[Randy Lee]

One of the best parts about being in on the design phase of this project is that nothing is set in stone. With the 6.5" full lug barrel, I can remove weight incrementally until the center of gravity is located where it will give the best balance of pointability an recoil control.

I'd like to spend a day at the PC shop with Jim Rae and Jerry M. removing metal and getting Jerry's input on the weight distribution/handling characteristics.

The other thing that I'd like to do which may or may not be associated with this project is design a nice rubber grip intended for competition revolvers. No finger grooves, shallow cut out for moonclip clearance and a rubber pad up on the recoil shoulder of the backstrap where the knuckle of my thumb gets battered when shooting major with wooden grips. Last time I spoke to Pat and Aaron Hogue it will only cost $25,000.00 to make a new mold.

Randy

[revchuck]

I'm mainly an IDPA shooter, but I used to shoot ISU, and many guns there used a moveable weight hung on the barrel. I guess another possibility would be to use the two-piece barrel construction S&W is currently using, adding a rail of some kind underneath and supplying weights to permit the shooter to dial in his/her preferred balance. Don't know how that would interact with holstering, though. Another possibility would be to enter into a licensing agreement with Dan Wesson which would permit S&W to use the DW interchangeable barrel shroud system, or a modification thereof.

Don't mind me, I'm just blundering about on my lunch hour.

[Carmoney]

Personally, I think I'd prefer a regular 6.5" tube, similar to that on the older 25-2s. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing the full-underlug idea might wind up too muzzle-heavy, even with the last inch cut away.... If we're trying to add a little weight, I wonder if a 7" or 7.5" standard profile barrel would be even better? Longer sight radius and higher velocity? I would be interested in Jerry's and Patrick's thoughts on this--they're two others who like the long tubes.

[Nemo]

If the price is right I'll take one. I need another revo to supplement my trusty 625-2.

[Randy Lee]

My personal preference is the 6.5". For shooting 175 PF loads a somewhat heavier muzzle helps tame some of the harshness and aids in sight recovery. The 5" 625 points well, but after a practice session with factory rounds, my hands are feeling it.

If Smith is willing to do some of my requested features, you should be able to make PF with less powder than even through a 25-2 6 1/2" .

After 6.5", the gun gets a little unwieldy. The further out the muzzle is, the more time it takes to get the front sight to settle from the draw. With Surface grinding and possible lightening flutes, the weight of the barrel should not be an issue.

[TMC]

Hi Randy, I'd be interested in one of these 625's to add to the pile of S&W's I have.

I'd still like to see a 4" and 6" with a Ti cylinder in 9mm and 8-shots. Any chance of that hapening?

[Carmoney]

After 6.5", the gun gets a little unwieldy. The further out the muzzle is, the more time it takes to get the front sight to settle from the draw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just keep in mind all the incredible work Jerry did with his 8-3/8" M27 at the Steel Challenge, Second Chance, and elsewhere. Many other wheelgunners, either copying Jerry or through discovering the same benefits on our own, really learned to love those lighter-profile long barrels, even for fast and dirty shooting. After "Team S&W" started and he had a real sponsor, Jerry had them make him one with a 10-5/8" barrel!!

Does "long and lite" translate to IPSC, though? Not sure. Drawing and settling the front sight would not be a problem, though. Shooting through ports and windows, negotiating doorways, etc., I could see where there might be an issue.

You'll notice Sweeney is already thinking about milling off part of the underlug!!

Just promise me that you'll bring Jerry in on this conversation, Randy, and get his advice on barrel length and weight. It won't matter how cool and cutting-edge the gun might be if it feels sluggy. We all gotta remember--this ain't for ICORE. This is for a faster-paced game.

What would make me happiest? If my gun had a 8-3/8" skinny barrel the same profile as the old Model of 1950 Target. And if everybody else had a big ol' heavy underlug stuck to their guns......

Mike

[Airedale]

I just traded for a ANIB 25-2 6 1/2" . I called Randy today and threatened to do all the gunsmithing myself. When I "revved" the dremel, he wept openly.

I'll be sending it to him shortly for the Level III work.

Add some Miculek square butt grips, red fiber optic, and maybe Millett rear and it should be excellent!

Dave

[Randy Lee]

There's always the possibility of them making a 9mm. I just don't know when it'll happen. Jerry has been pushing for it for a while.

Remember that Steel Challenge and and Pin shooting are different creatures than IPSC. Steel Challenge has fixed target locations and no real power factor to speak of. A lightweight gun is advantageous in this case. Draw position is the same and a lot of the speed comes from neuro muscular repetition. Pin shooting has no draw if I am remembering correctly. Targets are also identical and at the same distance.

Patrick also stated that he might grind on the barrel if the weight distribution was too muzzle heavy. If they allow me to have a reasonable degree of input, it won't be.

In recent years, Smith has made several guns and put Jerry's name with the model- some had lighter barrel profiles and some had heavier. But for USPSA/IPSC he uses the 5" full underlug. Patrick and Jerry have talked about the 6.5" barrel and both have made mention that they planned to discuss the concept with Smith when they return from Ecuador. I'm sure they had discussed this at the Nationals- way before I started this thread.

When last I spoke to Jerry, he said he would contact me about the project upon his return. If I can coordinate being at Smith at the same time he goes back, I will.

One last point to make. Jerry is different from the rest of us. Period. His nerve conduction is faster than the rest of us. Physiologically, his hand size and body type is ideally suited to shooting a large frame double action revolver. He is to say the least - unique. That said, what will work best for him may not necessarily work for the rest of us. Lisa Farrell for example is of small stature and what works for Jerry DEFINITELY won't work for her. Smith and Wesson will want the gun to appeal to a vast majority of shooters and collectors. They are after all, here to make a good product with which they can make money.

My part in this whole thing is simply to ensure that the end product surpasses expectation.

For me, cutting-edge means design implementation which allows me to operate at the edge of my performance envelope without worrying if the gun can keep up.

[9146gt]

Randy, Smith has fluted cylinder assy's in stock (don't know if they are CNC machined stars) if they are early star extractors could they be fitted to current 10mm guns?

Thanks

Tom

[redmist10]

Randy,

I like the listed suggestions you have provided with the following exception:

Ditch the Titanium cylinder and spend a few bucks more for precision steel cylinder stop and a lot of the cylinder wear will be fixed, IMHO. I have heard a lot of chatter about the Ti cylinders wearing as they are shot to hot temps with a lot of practice shooting. A few hundred rounds each outing one after another tends to wear out the Ti cylinders from what I'm reading (by shooters).

I'd rather pay an extra $20 for that one steel part that was not MIM and save the hassle and expense (not to mention the hassle of bothering S&W with returned cylinders!) for one that will hold up to competition use and associated practice.

If overall weight is the issue then make them more like a traditional M25 and lose the full underlug...hell, just tell them to make the freaking M25 again!

I'd buy one of what you described, at a minimum, provided they were under $650 out of the box as you described. I've bought some "cheap" 625's and then put $500 in gunsmithing in them to get them the way I want them. Everyone is different in what they like...make it stock and stripped and allow for cheap purchase pricing....then we can send them to guys like you for gunsmithing. If they cost $800-1000 and I still have to send them to get the hammer bobbed, crane ball lock, etc. that I like then I'll skip it and buy a cheaper 5" and have it overhauled....PC guns rarely meet the criteria of average revo competitors like us. PC guns are great for plinkers that want an expensive "out of the box" piece they can show off to their friends. Most of the guns I saw at the Nationals were all hacked and personalized to suit, and that's the way it ought to be.

Most folks that don't shoot competition wouldn't give $550 for the guns we were using because they were so ugly but I bet most of us had $1000 or more in some of them.

Keep up the good work, the support is there even if S&W doesn't know we're out here.

PS - Where the heck are all these revolver guys during a typical USPSA match? Get to the range, boys!

[redmist10]

Hi Randy, I'd be interested in one of these 625's to add to the pile of S&W's I have.

I'd still like to see a 4" and 6" with a Ti cylinder in 9mm and 8-shots. Any chance of that hapening?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't see S&W ever making a 9mm in a revolver. At least not in the next twenty years. I think they believe it would cut into their .38spl market. More importantly, they don't think they have a market for it and can't justify setting up the shop to mass produce them. (before you think I'm nuts because there is so little difference in a frame that would support a 9mm versus a .38spl - - - I'm just telling you what the reps at the 2004 IDPA Nationals told me...after about fifteen minutes of badgering them about it)

Personally, a light-weight 9mm revolver fitted for moon-clips would be about the most ideal packing pistol I can imagine. Make it in a 3 or 4" barrel like a Ruger SP101 (or maybe I'm thinking of the GP100) and I'd buy two of them the day they came to my local store.

[TMC]

I can't see S&W ever making a 9mm in a revolver.  .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never thought about one until Jerry M. asked me if it sounded like an idea with a market.

You may be right, but bigger fish than us are asking about it.

[Richard Koester]

Hey Randy, put me down for one. If this foram has a silient majority, I'm part of it. I read the foram almost nightly. Most readers are going to want this gun. It's been my experieace that the cost of a gun is soon forgotten. It's how you feel about he gun itself that lives on. I've been waiting for the right time to get a 625. Looks like the time is near. Richard

[redmist10]

I can't see S&W ever making a 9mm in a revolver.  .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never thought about one until Jerry M. asked me if it sounded like an idea with a market.

You may be right, but bigger fish than us are asking about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many women or men with smaller hands would rather shoot a J or K-frame 9mm moonclip revolver than a N-Frame? Market? How about 50%+ of the population?

I defy anyone to find a Ruger 9mm revolver at a gun show or posted on one of the online auctions that lasts more than a couple of hours before being sold....market? Nah, no one would buy them....

Bean counters are against it though...too small a profit margin for the change over costs of production (they say).

[dgsmith]

Hey Randy,

I just bought a 325PD for $400 can you fit the cylinder to my 25-2. What would it cost. And is it worth it, can I lighten up the trigger pull.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'm not looking for mass to dampen recoil. Many of us found at Second Chance that by the time you loaded a gun up enough to tame recoil it was like trying to aim a brick. A heavy brick. A full underlug on anything more than a 4" starts to get sluggish for me. I like the longer sight radius, so the 25-2 is perfect. (If I had my hands on an old 1950 Target, 6.5", I'd give it a try.)

Ti is fine, but properly heat-treated steel will do all we need. Unlike the softer (relatively speaking) stainless cylinders, cylinder stop slots in the 25-2s last forever Get S&W to either heat-treat the cylinders properly, or induction-harden the locking slots, and we'd have guns that lasted through all our use.

The trick S&W has to learn is that everyone shoots autos now. It isn't a matter of choice, as for many the choice doesn't come up. So tell the gun-buying public what fun they can have, what games they can play, and what an advantage having an S&W is, and they'll make the choice. until then, its "Glock, Beretta or Sig?" for the gun shop fun buy.

An eight-shot 9mm? Who couldn't have fun with an accurate wheelgun that uses ammo so cheap Cabelas uses cases of it for doorstops?

One notable thing here in Ecuador: other shooters don't look at us in pity. They see the moon clips, the big S&W, and say "Cool." Then they ask how you're doing, and by how much is Jerry winning.

[Randy Lee]

Dave Hearth made a 9mm cylinder that retrofitted the 627 super. It was a stellar piece of workmanship. Unfortunately the prototype is missing.

One thing Jerry and I talked about a few months ago was buying a flat of cylinders (probably about 200)pulling them off the production floor before they are chambered and throated and doing it ourselves.

The problem with the steel cylinders is two-fold: 1) they are soft for liability reasons. 2) The greater the mass the greater the inertia.

1) The engineers at Smith designed the cylinder to be ductile and peel in the event of a catastrophic failure. If you've ever seen the results of a double charge in a Smith revolver you will notice that the topstrap and top 3 chambers peel away. Of the ones I've seen, little if any injury is experienced by the shooter. Shaken perhaps but usually they live to tell the tale. Smith will not change this no matter how much Jerry or I beg. As a result, peening of the cylinder stop wall is inevitable for the competitive shooter. Track marks where the cylinder stop rides along the surface of the cylinder will appear almost immediately. Surface hardening processes such as hard chrome, TiAlN, Melanite can slow the process.

2) The increased mass of the steel exacerbates the peening effect at the cyl. stop notches. A mass in motion will stay in motion until acted upon by another force. This is why peening of the cylider stop notches appears faster and to a greater degree on unfluted cylinders like the 610. If tolerances are on the edge of spec, the peening can occur before the cyl. stop is fully engaged in the stop notch. If not diagnosed early enough, the cylinder will begin skipping chambers. This is not the only cause for this, but it is a common one. Wolff has sold many extra strength cylinder stop springs at the request of customers experiencing this problem. The pitfall here is that it is a temporary fix. The extra force applied to the cylinder stop accelerates surface wear of the cylinder, the stop itself and can result in further damage. The extra spring force also affects the quality of the trigger work.

I selected the Titanium cylinder based upon my current experience with the latest production run of cylinders. Jim Rae was kind enough to send me a couple of 8 shot fluted Ti cylinders to do R&D work with(Check out some of my posts in the Ultra Light Trigger and Pandoras Box topics).

In the earlier versions I had seen failures(chipping) related to the wrong alloy mix for the application. The Ti alloy intended for aircraft engine mounts do not undergo the same stresses that a cylinder would experience with a .357 magnum round for example. The engineers at Smith are aware of this and I believe have remedied the issues. If not, I'd like to interface with them to come up with the right alloy mix to serve our needs.

In the case of the harder cylinder stop, the peening effect will remain the same. The last time I spoke to Ron Power he was selling an oversized bar stock cylinder stop if you desire a non-MIM part. I like the older forged part because the engagement surface for the cylinder stop reset holds a better polish and I can shave off a few more ounces of trigger pull weight .

My best guess(and it is a guess) is that the gun will probably run somewhere in the $1000.00 - $1200.00 range assuming it has all the technical features incorporated. You shouldn't need to do anything to it other than shoot it. No additional trigger work(unless you want a 4 lb trigger job ), no replacement rear sight, no further accurizing ,no additional crane locks. Well maybe a J-Lo hand puppet for Michael Bane .

How does the name- Smith and Wesson S.A.R. (Sport Application Revolver)model sound to you guys?

Randy

[Patrick Sweeney]

Bevel my chambers and call it done.

[Randy Lee]

Patrick,

I'm not sure why Smith has been so resistant to induction hardening the cylinder slots. It would be nice to find out. Perhaps they, like some auto manufacturers are engineering in obsolescence.

Also, good luck to the U.S. Revolver Team!

[Randy Lee]

Last thing before I go home.

Thank you to all the forum(and non-forum) supporters of this project.

Your input will be carried into the design- after all, it is supposed to be a competition revolver.

Randy

[Carmoney]

Am I the only one who has never had this peening problem??

Now I'll admit that most of my rounds downrange over the past 20 years have been through older blue carbon-steel guns, but I've done quite a lot of shooting with stainless guns too. And I have never once had to replace a cylinder on anything.

I'm careful opening and closing them--is that part of it?

Maybe my trigger pull style (rolling a smooth trigger with the first joint of my index finger) is gentler than all this slappy-pad stuff??

I just dunno. I'm trying to get excited about this super custom concept wheelgun, I really am......but the more I think about it, the more I suspect that I would do every bit as well with my 625 or 25-2, with my own action work, chamfer job, replacement sights, and rubber Hogues.

For a third of the money.

But--that said--I think it would be cool to experiment with all this stuff, and I'm glad this project seems to be growing wings.

Mike

[Randy Lee]

Hi Mike,

My general rule is never buy first generation anything. \

In my case, I will be the Guinea Pig with my standard 625 5" using the Ti cylinder.

As soon as my gun comes back from Ecuador, I'll start the process. At least I'll be able to tell if the material itself will be an issue.

The opening and closing is part of the equation, as is how you operate the trigger.

But as the trigger pull weights have essentially dropped to half of what they used to be in previous years, the tradeoff is more wear and tear on the cylinder stop slots as the cylinders are gaining in rotational speed. There are always tradeoffs so it seems.