6.5" 625 Enhanced Revolver

[Patrick Sweeney]

What matters to me:

Some kind of changeable front sight. A Novak dovetail works, and if the S&W changeable sights stay on, that would be fine too.

I'm happy with S&W rears, but then I've spent 40+ years with them

I like a smooth trigger, but serrations can be ground off.

What I'm interested in are throat and bore dimensions. If S&W is going to ship a "one size fits all" .45 throat, bored .453-.454", fuggedaboutit. Make the throats .451" to .452" and I'm in. make the bore tight, too, not over .4520" Jerry is of the opinion that a broached bore is better than a button or EDM-ed bore. I don't know that it matters, but if he likes it, I'd want it.

Ti cylinders might be nice, but not if it costs another 50%. A stainless 25-2, with tight throats and bore, and I'm in.

The old barrel profile is fine. If the longer one proves too heavy, I can always trim the underlug.

[Keith]

I also need another .45 revolver.

I have to borrow 625's from friends, for backup, when I go to these larger matches. So, if the price is fair, count me in.

[Randy Lee]

Patrick,

I would want cylinder throat to be in the .4515 to .4520 range as well.

I also spec'd that the barrels be Taylor throated after the barrel has been installed. This will eliminate the choking ring that is often present as the barrel is torqued into position. If the barrel/cylinder gap is set at .005 max., the Taylor throat has the added benefit of slight velocity increase(25-35 fps) in tests the guns I've done. I believe that the Taylor throating modification offers the best accuracy improvement for the dollar cost in a production revolver.

In the first 627 V-Comp I tested this modification in, group size at 50 yds. from the prone position went from 4" to 2.5" with Sierra 170 gr. fmj's.

Because the factory probably won't go for line boring the cylinder chambers and throats, Taylor throating is the next best thing. It should increase the probability that the purchaser gets a revolver with better than average accuracy.

I also agree with Jerry that broach cut rifling is preferred for this gun. The square profile tends to bite into lead or even copper coated bullets better than the ECM barrels. Since lead/moly coated/plated bullets are common purchases for competiton shooters, the broach cut barrels are my preference. Smith already has the broaching machines so we might as well take advantage of it. For a true jacketed bullet, it probably doesn't really matter. Groove diameter of .4515 max.

Randy

[MBaneACP]

Randy;

Am in a hotel room in Gillette, Wyoming, watching a SOUTH PARK marathon in the middle of the night. Just saw this thread. Put me down for one of the 6 1/2 inch ti-cylinder guns! Lemme know when to send you money.

What the heck, you've already got two of my guns anyway!

Michael B

PS: You do great work!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Randy,

Yes, assuming they price it so that us normal folks can buy them.

I've "wasted" a fair amount on Performance Center guns that were little or no better than the stock offering. They still needed chamfered, honed, different sights, and of course, a trigger job.

Dave

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What Dave said

Gary

[Randy Lee]

I'm sure Smith will want the new revo to be as reasonable as possible. I just hope they don't water down all my desired features.

Hi Michael!

I forgot to get some info from you for my logbook. Also, did you want the SA retained on your 629? Email me when you get time.

Saw the "Passion of the Gibson" South Park episode last night.

Will you be at the Steel Challenge again this year?

Randy

[Airedale]

I shot 2 stages with my smooth trigger 5" PC 625 yesterday and two stages with my 8(ish) lb 25-2.

I had higher hit factors with my 25 and felt smoother. Interesting.

Dave

[Carlos]

"Pretty much all of the revolvers I've seen from the Performance Center have trigger pulls equivalent to S&W's standard production line. The semi auto's which I've seen such as the 952, 945 or some of the new Koenig specials have decent trigger pulls. My feeling is that it is time the same consideration is applied towards their competition revolvers."

If it is a competition revolver at an expected high price, I would expect a suitable & very light DA trigger; we are talking about a LONG DA pull so I fail to see how lightening that up would be in any way unsafe (the company's usual excuse for lousy triggers).

Two other small details: it had better be chamfered for fast reloads and it had better accept different front blades - such as a fiberoptic as found on other Smiths.

Regards,

D.

[revchuck]

If it is a competition revolver at an expected high price, I would expect a suitable & very light DA trigger; we are talking about a LONG DA pull so I fail to see how lightening that up would be in any way unsafe (the company's usual excuse for lousy triggers).

I've heard that the reason the PC guns come out with lousy triggers - well, heavy ones, anyway - it that MA law requires the trigger pulls to be >10 lbs on guns that they produce. I know that my 681 that I sent in for their "Combat Revolver Package" came back with about an eight lb. DA and two lb. SA, and is 100% with CCI 500s.

[mcb]

Alright you guy have me all wound up about the possibility of this new revolver. What are the chance of this deal happening? And how long will it take if it does happen? Should I hold off getting a standard 625 with a 5" barrel for next year counting on this deal? Or should I just go ahead with my plan to purchase a S&W 625 and trade it in for one of these 6.5 inch versions when they show up.

Debating weather I should holding my breath or not.

mcb

[MBaneACP]

Hey Randy;

Go ahead and leave the SA on the 629, in case I should have some epiphany and need to take a single action shot. Saw "Passion of Mel Gibson" episode. Also saw the "J-Lo Hand Puppet" episode where Cartman's hand has to have an "intimate" relationship with Ben Affleck. Yes, it's low, childish 14-year-old boy humor, but I do love South Park!

Meanwhile, back on the thread...what can I do to help make this S&W deal happen? I was up there a couple of weeks ago with Paul Pluff, the Director of Marketing, and Joe Bergeron, the handgun product manager. I also get along pretty well with the guys at the Performance Center. I don't want to horn in or anything, but if a push from me might help, just say the word.

And, yes, I will be at Steel Challenge! After all, we're planning to give away A LOT of money!

Michael B

[MBaneACP]

PS: Check outmy blog this AM!

[Randy Lee]

Thanks Michael!

Cool blog too! I forwarded some of the info to Jim Rae at the Performance Center.

The guys at Bangers Distributors may be interested in the deal to get the necessary numbers.

Any people who you can put the bug in the proverbial ear at Smith cannot hurt.

I believe this gun has a lot of potential and sellability.

Perhaps they could be shipped in a J-Lo hand puppet storage sock?

mcb,

Hopefully this project will get underway soon. With people like Michael Bane, Patrick Sweeney and Jerry M. pushing for it, it stands a better chance of happening than if it were just me knocking on Smith and Wesson's front door.

There are several distributors of PC guns so one of them is bound to say "Go make it". as Middleman stated in a previous post, it will take a committment to purchase 200+ guns to get it made. If the gun is engineered to specs, it should sell itself. After all, I think the production 625 is one of their better sellers.

Randy

[Patrick Sweeney]

Jerry tells me he will be at Smith in November. We should lean on them before his arrival, so he has maximum leverage to get this done.

If S&W wants to sell it, simply show the group a properly-built revolver can shoot in the ad with the announcement of the new gun.

[Randy Lee]

"Jerry tells me he will be at Smith in November. We should lean on them before his arrival, so he has maximum leverage to get this done."

I spoke to Jerry just before he left for Ecuador about the project, but he was short on time so we didn't get to discuss the particulars other than a 6.5" w/Ti cylinder.

Hopefully we'll get the opportunity to talk about the subtleties of the project when he returns from the WS.

[Middle Man]

When I read Randy's posts about a Ti cylinder set up on a revlover and the surrounding discussions just two short weeks ago, I knew the idea was a winner. I took the liberty to gather the information, presented it to the right people, and off it went up the wholesale chain and on to S&W.

As a wholesaler, we have presented the idea to the Performance Center and they now call the ball. We've sent them ideas for guns that have been built and ideas that have not. All you ICORE shooters must have thought the 627 8 shot 38 super was cool, and I'm sure glad you did! Of course, with the many heavyweight industry insiders now embracing the 625 idea, it could grow wings and double what the super did.

Patrick, ask Jerry if he remembers sitting on the floor eating overpriced pizza at 2005 Shot Show with a bald kid in a tie. And all you folks thought the Shot Shot was sooo glamorous!

Now I'm thinking maybe Jerry is the firearms industry's equivalent to the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon Game.

[firewalker]

So when will they be ready?

I could use

Frederick Haring

[Middle Man]

So when will they be ready?

I could use 

Doubtful anything will be seen until 2006 Shot Show and probably not widely available until Spring 2006 or later. Design, engineering, schedule of production, and shipment will take some time you understand.

[Randy Lee]

Sounds like the ball is in play!

One of my dreams:

I'd like to make a Limited Edition set of 10 guns in which I do all the hand fitting, accuracy and trigger work. Sort of an homage to the Old World Craftsmen and Craftwomen who used to handfit oversized parts to the individual guns rather than assemble like we do today.

Part Old World, part Hi-Tech but all tack-driver and built to race. Revolvers incorporating the best internals (some not even available to the public yet), careful attention to detail and a whole lot of TLC.

Sort of like a Krieghoff or Perazzi of revolvers.

Can you tell I'm excited?

Randy

[Rob Boudrie]

I've heard that the reason the PC guns come out with lousy triggers - well, heavy ones, anyway - it that MA law requires the trigger pulls to be >10 lbs on guns that they produce.  I know that my 681 that I sent in for their "Combat Revolver Package" came back with about an eight lb. DA and two  lb.  SA, and is 100% with CCI 500s.

The requirement is a bit more complex that just "10lb trigger", is defined in 940 CMR 16.00, and is a requirement on sales to consumers, not a limitation on what the factory may manufacture and ship outside of Massachusetts. In short, it is inaccurate to state that S&W must manufacture all of their guns with 10lb triggers due to MA law.

MA is a strange state full of bizarre gun laws, but even MA has its limits.

[Randy Lee]

Forgot an important "Thank you" to Middleman for moving the idea up the chain!

Randy

[Carmoney]

Hey!!! Maybe a true honest-to-gosh equipment race and the prospect of the $2,500 high-end IPSC revo is exactly what it takes to bring all sorts of shooters streaming away from Limited and Open and into our division!!!

(...not trying to step on your dream, Randy, your stuff is definitely worth the money....I'm just not sure we can trust S&W and the distributors to avoid the temptation to try to fleece us real bad on this whole idea.....just look at those nice but weynefug-overpriced Koenig 1911s if you're wondering what I'm worried about....)

[Randy Lee]

I completely understand. For a full blown racegun, $2500.00 is reasonable if it's hand fit by someone who knows the gun ins and outs. They typically FEEL like a lot of attention went into the gun, and they perform at the very least to the customer's expectations. A tight slide to frame fit that moves smoothly without bumps and grinding sounds, a solid barrel lockup... The dollar investment can be seen(and felt) in the sum of its parts and how they are integrated into the whole.

The whole process of making this gun a reality is fascinating in and of itself. I will be communicating with the Performance Center about the project and I suspect negotiating for what I desire vs. what is economically feasable. From my point of view, the features and technical requests should not require major changes in their manufacturing processes, but I haven't seen the process from start to finish.

The gun as it comes out of the Performance Center should be accurate, handle well and point naturally. The trigger pull should be smooth without stacking and no greater than 8 lbs. The sight picture should be clean and the profile should be elegant. None of these features should be prohibitive in cost.

If I could take hand selected cylinders, barrels and frames, hand fit everything, throw in a few hundred hours of machining, reaming, lapping and polishing, I think I could make 10 6.5" 625Ti revolvers well worth $2500.00

[Middle Man]

"Sort of like a Krieghoff or Perazzi of revolvers."

I hope that no handgun is so expensive as to require a second mortgage.

[Carmoney]

Sorry, I was in a grumpy mood last night after sitting through the first of three 3-1/2 hour sessions of the hunter safety course Sam and I are taking.

Actually, it's pretty cool that we're even having this conversation about revolvers! Let's keep it going!